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Here we go again 140M DOWN

Discussion in 'Motor Graders' started by 20/80, Aug 31, 2016.

  1. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    OK, M0081390 only applies to on-highway truck engines as far as I can see. At a quick glance I can't see the S/N prefix of a C7 engine for a 140M grader.
    One thing in the document that IS relevant though, is the comment "Perform the procedure in Special Instructions, REHS3819 and for repeated low hour failures review Special Instructions, M0068178.".
    Taking M0068178 first. This document DOES apply to 140M and requires checking the oil filter base gasket, cooler flange flatness, & the bypass valve amongst others.
    REHS3819 again is relevant to a 140M and details the procedure to clean the rail. I think the words "After a HEUI Pump Failure" should be included at the end of the title.

    So in summary, M0081390 is only relevant to a 140M in as much as it makes reference at Step 1 of the installation procedure to two other publications that are relevant regarding problem areas and cleanout procedures to be performed after a HEUI pump failure. I would tend to agree with the Cat guy about not installing the inline filter on this particular engine because it is not mentioned in the list of products just below the title of M0081390. The only use I would make of M0081390 is as a reference document directing me to procedures to be adopted in the engine regarding potential trouble spots (M0068178) and also the procedsure to follow for cleaning out the rail after a HEUI Pump failure (REHS3819).
     
  2. 20/80

    20/80 Senior Member

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    Thanks Nige, in the list of grader engines our c7 is listed for the inline oil filter upgrade, we have ordered the oil filter base gasket to replace where we have leakage around the edges of the base, so i'm thinking there may be a problem there also according to Cats bulletin , we have changed the HEUI pump and clean the head and rails, changed all injectors an installed the updated injectors with the screens, so in a nut shell Cat is trying to keep the oil as clean as possible going into the HUEI pump to prevent pump failure and taking out the injectors, so are you saying this oil in line filter may cause engine damage if installed???
     
  3. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    I’m sorry I have no idea. It was 10:30 last night when I was looking for info and I ran out of time before going to bed.

    What Cat is doing with the online filter is exactly what we told them they needed to do 20 years ago to protect the HEUI pump.
     
  4. 20/80

    20/80 Senior Member

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    Thanks Nige, that's what I was thinking also, active prevention, but something I am concerned about are these reman HUIE pumps, cat is saying off the record 2000 hrs if you are lucky, they are warrantying them but I don't think the will cover the injectors the pump takes out which is very costly, I believe the factory one from Cat which is around 5 + grand gets around 5 6000 hrs so with active prevention you may get more so that being said the factory pump is better in the long run price wise,but something is still taking these pumps out so i'm hoping these inline filters will help along with less hrs on oil between changes is going to help.
     
  5. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    If the engine S/N of your 140M is included in the list of M0083190 then I’d be comfortable doing the filter upgrade. I am travelling at the moment so I won’t be able to do any more checking until probably late next week.

    One thing about HEUI engines is the need to be very particular about oil and filter changes. I personally would not even try to stretch oil out to 500 hours between changes, I would do them at 250 intervals even if the book said 500 and I’d also be using OEM filters just so that if anything went South there could be no finger pointed at the PM program as a contributing factor to a pump or injector failure.
     
  6. 20/80

    20/80 Senior Member

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    Thanks Nige, I totally agree on the oil changes and OEM filters, our grader is back up and out working at the moment, I will keep the forum updated, thanks again for your help.
     
  7. 20/80

    20/80 Senior Member

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    Good day folks, well... we just lost another engine in our 140M in our sister shop, this is the second time the engine went out, lost the first one at 3300hrs Cat covered it and rebuilt it under warranty, now at 3200hrs later the motor went out again, we are just over the 2 year warranty that came with the rebuild from Cat and they are not covering this one, I am not sure if its a C7 or the C9 but it is a DEF engine, still waiting on what happened and what caused the failure, another engine was lost in a 12m3 in one of our other DOT shops in another county a month ago 3200hrs on her Cat is covering that one, in our shop our 140m just completely shut down in the middle of the road a day ago took a couple of hours to get it up and running again, code is saying irregular ECM update so what ever that means, could be a short in the wiring harness, i'm afraid we have not seen the last of this problem, got to love these M's.
     
  8. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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  9. 20/80

    20/80 Senior Member

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    Yes, that is a very good idea to do before working the machine, we use electrical grease also but your product seems heavy duty, not sure if it is available here in this part of Canada I will look up to see if there is any suppliers , if my memory serves me right this has happened before to this machine turned out to be a couple of wires gone bad in the wiring harness, we had to use jumper wires to keep our 140m running till a new wiring harness came in, the wires were a nightmare to track down and sort out. thanks
     
  10. 20/80

    20/80 Senior Member

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    Well good day everyone, well our 140m is down again, this time we have to pull the engine we have a oil pan gasket gone, has been leaking abit for awhile now but is to the point now that it has to be changed, they should refresh the engine (11000hrs) while they have it out if they are smart, so you know that's not going to happen, this C7 engine has had its problems for sure and is also using abit of anti freeze each week, this engine pull could not come at a worst time on the eve of winter works, the machine worked good this summer though with just a few electrical issues, we also need a set of doors they have completely rusted out, new doors are around 5 to 6 grand a piece so our fab shop is going to try rebuilding them, should be interesting what they come up with, I'm thinking plywood doors for the winter. lol
     
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  11. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Have your doors got the glued-in glass or have they been modified to the old-fashioned zip-in glass..?
     
  12. 20/80

    20/80 Senior Member

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    There the glued in type Nige, the bottoms and tops are really bad completely rusted through, we filled them with foam and toped with body fill last winter but all have fell out, the glass is what's holding the doors together now.
     
  13. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    We had lots of issues with cracked glass in M-Series door windows as a result of them banging in the wind, etc. The conversion means that your local flat glass supplier can then fit replacement windows in 30 minutes or less. The curing time on the glued ones is 24 hours IIRC.
    The zip-in upgrade actually puts more metal in the door. REHS4389 is the Special Instruction that covers the conversion. If your dealer can't help you then PM me with an email address and I'll send you a copy.
     
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  14. 20/80

    20/80 Senior Member

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    Thanks Nige, I will let you know how things turn out, thanks again
     
  15. Fatgraderman

    Fatgraderman Well-Known Member

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    Is the coolant turning up somewhere? Like in the fuel filter or oil? Might be injector cups.
     
  16. 20/80

    20/80 Senior Member

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    We haven't been able to track down where its going, its not leaking anywhere, we are not over filling the tank just to the marks, but if let go the tank would go dry, nothing in the oil or fuel filters, we are kind of puzzled, the engine has to be burning it, but there is no steam out off the exhaust when running or idling, the engine does not seem to be running hot, could be the injector cups.
     
  17. Cmark

    Cmark Senior Member

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    Have you considered a leaking heater core and the coolant running out of the A/C drain lines?
    An oil sample report will quickly tell you if the coolant is going up the flue.
     
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  18. 20/80

    20/80 Senior Member

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    Could be, but you would smell it in the cab I would think, we have done a SOS on every oil change does not seem to show up in oil, but sometimes the SOS are not right all the time, did a SOS on my 140h results were to shut the engine down, 50hrs later sent them another sample all green lights good to go, go figure.
     
  19. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    If it's a really small leak you might well not smell it.
    How long does it take for the coolant level in the tank to go down from MAX to MIN if you don't top it up .?
    Have you ever had an SOS that was positive for either water, glycol, or both..?
    What are the trends for sodium and potassium in the oil analysis going back as far as you can..? At least a couple of years if you have results to hand.
     
  20. Cmark

    Cmark Senior Member

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    A couple of points on this:

    Yes, correct. An individual sample on its own shouldn't be considered a reliable indication of a compartment's condition. Fluid sampling is best used as a trending tool building an overall picture over time. The more time the better.

    Also, are you simply relying on the labs summary reports of A, B or C condition? This is a mistake. In a situation where you are responsible for the maintenance of equipment, it's extremely beneficial to learn (at least) the basics of analysis interpretation yourself. The lab are processing hundreds of samples a day and subtle emerging issues can get overlooked and, more often, non-issues can get flagged as serious problems. In all probability the recommendation to shut down your engine could be attributed to a sampling error.

    If you don't feel confident in reaching your own conclusions, call your dealer, ask to speak to the lab and explain your problem. In my experience the interpreters are mostly (in the nicest possible way) closeted nerds who are only too happy to speak to someone in the outernet and put their book-learning into practise.
     
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