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"Feeling" lines with the backhoe

digger242j

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Oct 31, 2003
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6,646
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Southwestern PA
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Self employed excavator
In my opening post, I said:
1111234567890a
Anybody care to share their thoughts on whether or not this is an operationally practical approach to locating buried obstacles?

I guess I should've specified that you have to locate them without breaking them.
 

surfer-joe

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Mar 25, 2007
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1,403
Location
Arizona
"Feeling" lines

We did a huge amount of work with backhoes in the oilfields in Kern County, California, and the soil there can range from mud to rock. Being as busting a line there could mean a water, oil, gas, or live steam spill, or perhaps shorting a 440 3/phase or more electrical setup, digging was done very, very carefully in most cases. Locating by feel with a hoe was verboten!

We used every source we could to locate buried objects and every detection tool known. The boss would hunt up old timers and drag them out to a field for a look-see. A walk-a-round was mandatory for the entire crew, and not just within a few feet of the job site, but way out in a big circle. The oil companies get real ringy when you shut down a few wells because you dug up something, they go nuts when the whole field shuts down. Some of these fields and well locations are over a hundred years old and there is stuff buried everywhere.

In spite of all our best efforts including the above and always using an observer or two and a couple of shovel men, we'd hit something that was not known to be there every once in a while. If we were lucky it was a dead line. Sometimes we weren't so lucky.

Steam lines are about the worse for the crew. Live steam takes the skin off from exposed limbs in a heartbeat, Levi's hardly slow it down, and even lines that have been properly shut down, drained, tagged out, blocked, and ribboned off, will occasionally belch a plug of boiling hot water and then a cloud of steam. That's why most of these are now run on the surface and only go underground where they absolutely have to.

Years ago I hit a gas line in a parking lot with a little Case gas-engine dozer. I couldn't figure out why the engine would race like crazy in one certain area. I did have a cold at the time and couldn't smell a thing. The foreman eventually smelled the gas and came over to see what it was. That line was about 4 inches under the surface.

Does anyone here remember the excavator that hit the high pressure gas line right on I-70 just east of Denver a few years ago. Killed several people and melted several machines and autos. And they knew it was there!!........

Plowing snow around locations, compressor stations, and collector facilities in Michigan is always exciting. The gas companies try their best to mark everything before the snow flies, but they miss some stuff, mostly dead-men, and over a winter sometimes the snow banks cover up the markers. Even a Case 580 will knock a good hole in a pipe or rip wiring off. I used a Michigan 280 rubber-tired dozer most of that winter, and my boss cringed every time I went out of the yard for the day. But boy that baby could move snow!

His brother took out a 2" feeder line coming down from an oil well up on a hill with a 644 Deere loader. It was buried under a snow bank. He hit it right where it joined another line and next thing you know he hollered at me to shut the pump-jack off cause I was right at the wellhead clearing off the location. The break was about a mile downhill from the well, and about two miles from the other. You just can't believe how much crude oil will drain out of those 2" pipes. Fortunately for the bosses brother, these wells were not in the hydrogen sulfide (poison gas) zone. The cleanup cost was huge and involved several companies, it took a week to do, and both wells were shut in and out of production.

I hit a fat communication cable in Arvada, Colorado that connected the missile silos in Wyoming with NORAD in Colorado Springs in 1971. The cable originally was buried 14 feet down from the surface, but the developer that bought the property came in with scrapers and removed all but 2-3 feet of that overburden. The cable was not marked on any plans nor did any city inspectors know about it at the time. The extreme right rear basement corner was staked for a 4 foot cut, and that's about right where I hit the cable. It got pretty exciting there in about an hour or so. Cops, FBI, military folks of all kinds. My boss and I thought we might wind up in prison for a long time……

Myself included, and most other backhoe operators I know, could not feel anything with a backhoe bucket smaller than a 12 inch steel pipe without breaking it. There are exceptions I suppose and of course, other indicators that something's there, but the usual indication is generally hung up in the air on a bucket tooth.

It's not worth the risk or cost to knowingly try to find buried things with a backhoe or excavator, or any other tool other than a small shovel, unless you know for absolute certain they are no good or not being used. That's an assumption, and most here know where that word is in the dictionary.
 

digger242j

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Southwestern PA
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Self employed excavator
In my opening post, I said:
1111234567890a

I just noticed it, and I could've edited the bolded part out, but I'll leave it here for posterity. That is my son Brody's first actual post on the internet.

(That's what I get for walking away from the computer with a reply window open.)
 

KeithRA

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
12
Location
ILLinois
What i ment we locate lines by hand i dig around gas, water or what ever by machine.As long as i have seen pipe i can dig around pipe with machine and it get covered i have alist top of pipe uncovered by hand.I offen touch pipe with machine.
 

digger242j

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Southwestern PA
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Self employed excavator
I think any operator worth his salt will be able to dig around water lines as you described, although I've had my rear end chewed on by water authority types complaining that I tore the polywrap around their pipe. On the other hand, I've seen plastic gas service lines cut through by over enthusiastic use of shovels.
 

tuney443

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Mar 19, 2006
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1,216
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Dutchess County,NY
Occupation
excavating contractor
To answer the original question--no,a shovel wielded by an experienced worker is the only safe way to find utilities,Once they're found though and cleaned off for good visibility,then,an experienced operator with a reliable rig can dig around them.Not a place for hot-dogging.
 

KeithRA

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Mar 15, 2005
Messages
12
Location
ILLinois
The next time i take on a hard job where some foreigner that but the plow before horse.I will make video.I took on a sewer and 12" storm sewer with
5-4' catch basin's with 4' sumps for a guy.He built two townhouses and but in all other services in.I took it in middle of winter with 2' to 3' of frost.I had to run across front of property with 12" storm with catch basin on both lot lines. Then run down both lot lines to rear or building with one ending at corner of rear of building and other in rear of lot in center of building.I had 8'6" on each side of building.I had electric on both sides of building right where storm sewer was going in at.Had to uncover about 90' of electric service on each side about 2' deep on one side.Other side varied 2' to 6" to 2' then 1' then back down.Because it went over a buried patio then over a 4' foundation 25 feet long.I had to remove all concrete to but in storm approx. 6' feet.Its hard removing frost with power and phone in the frost.Then but 4' catch basin in with gas line touching one side electric touching cone on basin 1' from side of frame.I only had 3'8" between gas and electric to install 4' basin with 4' sump.It was touching gas on backside of basin and electric on offset cone.I done all machine work with 130 size machine the only thing my to labors are good for leaning on shovel.I didn't cut any services.
 

Gmads

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Jan 25, 2007
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65
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Dallas, TX
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Ditchdigger
I was just thinking about this recently and was looking at the Vermeer site at vacuum excavators. They also had a "ground penetrating radar" set-up that looked pretty cool. It looked like a lawnmower with a screen attached to it. I'd love to see one in person or get feedback from someone that has used one.
 

surfer-joe

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Mar 25, 2007
Messages
1,403
Location
Arizona
"Feeling" lines

I bought a used city municipal vacuum truck some years ago for the tailings job in Grand Junction. We used it primarily to clean out the sumps at the wash stations, but found other uses for it like cleaning up difficult to reach areas where a backhoe or laborers couldn't work very well. Muddy and very wet conditions were it's forte, but it would suck up 12 inch diameter rocks, loose dirt and sand, and even moderately tight soil like nobodies business. Deep holes could be cleaned out without excavating setbacks or disturbing more soil. This was very good at removing fill around fragile water and sewer pipes.

After our project was essentially complete I sent the truck to another tailings cleanup in Utah down by Mexican Hat. The problem there was loose drifting radioactive sand. This had been blown all over the place and every rock and other windbreak for miles had a little sand dune behind, under, and all around it. The vacuum took it all in stride and sucked it up cleanly without making a bigger mess or disturbing much of the terrain.

The enclosed bed on the truck could hold about 6-7 yards. It used a 6V53 Detroit for the vacuum fan. Had a long hydraulically actuated boom and trunk that stuck out over the front. The tandem chassis was an International cab- over, DT466 engine with an Allison auto. Nice rig.

A fellow in southern Colorado used a similar rig to clean out prairie dogs. He'd just lower the trunk over a hole and suck them out. He replaced the impact plate inside the box with an old mattress or something soft so they weren't killed.

A rig like this could save a utility contractor a lot of time and money if he spends most of his day trying to dig around water, sewer, gas, and electric utility piping and connectors.
 

d4c24a

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Jul 14, 2006
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ENGLAND U.K
not good

I was just thinking about this recently and was looking at the Vermeer site at vacuum excavators. They also had a "ground penetrating radar" set-up that looked pretty cool. It looked like a lawnmower with a screen attached to it. I'd love to see one in person or get feedback from someone that has used one.

we have had one simalar on demo with operator it was not much good
took an awful long time ,when he was done and convinced he had found the water main we dug down and found a large root:beatsme
 

dayexco

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May 21, 2005
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south dakota
i consider myself a "seasoned" operator.........and anybody that tells me that he can "feel"................a power line, a gas line, a water main..........when there are lives at risk, would never be on my payroll. our primary concern should be with the safety of those that work with us. 2nd is the responsibility we have to the owner of the properties that we work on. lastly.........should be our egos
 

SouthOnBeach

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Apr 29, 2007
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130
Location
Westren North Carolina
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jack of all trades
i have never been able to feel something as small as a waterline or electrical line. once one is located i can easily dig around it or along it if we need to remove or repair it. but just to go blindly digging for it by feel of the machine, no way.
 

biggixxerjim

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Jan 6, 2007
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New Jerz
i consider myself a "seasoned" operator.........and anybody that tells me that he can "feel"................a power line, a gas line, a water main..........when there are lives at risk, would never be on my payroll. our primary concern should be with the safety of those that work with us. 2nd is the responsibility we have to the owner of the properties that we work on. lastly.........should be our egos

Very well put. Not everybody can be a hero......
 

KeithRA

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Mar 15, 2005
Messages
12
Location
ILLinois
I find it more scary to have a operator that can't tell the if he's digging in rock or dirt.When your sticking your bucket in the ground and your digging most of the time depending on what kind of soil it is. A operator should tell if there is something in trench harder then soil around it. I lot of times i feel tree roots and have laborer verify what i am feeling before i cut it.Plastic gas services are hard to feel.But i cannot believe a operator can't tell if he's hitting a rock,tree root or a water main.Here where i dig public utility Locator's tend to give bad location.I dig and use soil probe in locating utility's.I probe ditch and take down the ditch to the depths i have probed. when the guy with probe locates it i dig down within to about 6" from pipe.Take the shovel and verify its the utility we are looking for.Then a dig up pipe with machine by digging down on both sides and pushing soil out from under it with the machine. This crap about guys making labors dig the last 3' of soil out by hand digging up a water main. i have also seen guys dig up water main to do tap for water service and don't even dig below pipe with machine.When i do it dig at least 4" below pipe on both side then hand dig small amount from under it.
 

dayexco

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May 21, 2005
Messages
1,224
Location
south dakota
I find it more scary to have a operator that can't tell the if he's digging in rock or dirt.When your sticking your bucket in the ground and your digging most of the time depending on what kind of soil it is. A operator should tell if there is something in trench harder then soil around it. I lot of times i feel tree roots and have laborer verify what i am feeling before i cut it.Plastic gas services are hard to feel.But i cannot believe a operator can't tell if he's hitting a rock,tree root or a water main.Here where i dig public utility Locator's tend to give bad location.I dig and use soil probe in locating utility's.I probe ditch and take down the ditch to the depths i have probed. when the guy with probe locates it i dig down within to about 6" from pipe.Take the shovel and verify its the utility we are looking for.Then a dig up pipe with machine by digging down on both sides and pushing soil out from under it with the machine. This crap about guys making labors dig the last 3' of soil out by hand digging up a water main. i have also seen guys dig up water main to do tap for water service and don't even dig below pipe with machine.When i do it dig at least 4" below pipe on both side then hand dig small amount from under it.
operators with all balls and no brains scare the crap outta me.
i wish i had an actual "count" on the yards of material i've moved in my life. in my little world.....i think i'm one of the best operators out there. i think i could squeeze pimples on your arse with excavator teeth....and with the feel of the controls, be able to count the hairs that surround it, that's not the point. do you know the tensile strength of a 1" diameter tree root compared to a 1" plastic gas line? is your "feel" worth that risk? it's not whether or not you or i have the capability of "feeling" the lines...........it's do we want to assume that risk of hurting/killing people that work with us? damaging the property of people we work for?
i'm 53....back in my late 20's, while working for my father....i had a "safe" ditch 8' deep.......caved in, cracked our pipelayer's pelvis. thank GOD he's still alive. he's got stainless steel plates/ screws to hold stuff together. i will NEVER, EVER put myself, or anybody that works for me.....in a predicament like that again....EVER
 
Last edited:

KeithRA

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
12
Location
ILLinois
I have seen a boring contractor cut telephone duct and take SBC 3 weeks before they closed hole. The contractor did not pay a dime for repair
miss marked by 7 feet.operator of boring machine said he felt hitting cable pushing 24" casing.He only hit two 3" cables out of about 20.Then he pulled back auger with cable on end of auger back 5 feet without running machine in reverse.The owner of company told me if they don't want it cut don't mis mark it.I got a job to do. There must have been 30 trucks on site.

i have been digging from about 1985,I am not working for no one I'm operating my own equipment and dig carefully and do have locations done.I have only cut a hand full of services all of them being mis marked.I thing if I'm working for my self and don't cut allot utility's.i don't see anything wrong. Like my 79 year old father, If your scared you better stay out of a machine. I was taught by watching my father dig from about 13 years old.I thing 5 or 6 utility's cut in 22 years is not bad.I have dug allot of dirt in 22 years.My father still can dig he's been digging sense 1971.He does not see anything wrong or does the villages or county inspectors that have watched me dig around utility's.
 

mflah87

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Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
186
Location
Waltham
Occupation
owner of excavating company
operators with all balls and no brains scare the crap outta me.
i wish i had an actual "count" on the yards of material i've moved in my life. in my little world.....i think i'm one of the best operators out there. i think i could squeeze pimples on your arse with excavator teeth....and with the feel of the controls, be able to count the hairs that surround it, that's not the point. do you know the tensile strength of a 1" diameter tree root compared to a 1" plastic gas line? is your "feel" worth that risk? it's not whether or not you or i have the capability of "feeling" the lines...........it's do we want to assume that risk of hurting/killing people that work with us? damaging the property of people we work for?
i'm 53....back in my late 20's, while working for my father....i had a "safe" ditch 8' deep.......caved in, cracked our pipelayer's pelvis. thank GOD he's still alive. he's got stainless steel plates/ screws to hold stuff together. i will NEVER, EVER put myself, or anybody that works for me.....in a predicament like that again....EVER


SAfety first if taking a few extra minutes to check on something can save your life or someone elses do it.
 
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