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Discussion in 'Other Construction/Demolition Equipment' started by 1693TA, Aug 14, 2020.

  1. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2010
    Messages:
    320
    Occupation:
    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
    Location:
    Farmington IL
    Thanks kindly and I agree. I was able to get a few things addressed and sorted over a couple of hours this morning. I did get the basket completely operational by cleaning some ground connections, and figuring out this unit needs solenoid coils on the proportioning valves. After verfying the command voltage was being applied correctly, I took after it drilling down to finding one of the leads broke at the coil itself and hanging in free space. These have been monkeyed with in the past as there is barely any encapsulation material on the magnet wire these are wound with at the entry point of the housing. There is absolutely no strain relief anyplace supporting the wire harness to the proportioning valves and this coupled with very brittle wiring makes for the issues I'm finding.

    Another issue I found was the latching relay plugged into the incorrect socket. It should have been on the left but was second from left. Only that left socket is wired for the reset command on pin 5 where the others are not.

    I'm going to investigate all six replacement coils and get that lift cylinder into a rebuild shop this next week. It really has taken to puking when raising or lowering the boom. Far too much to let it go.

    So far electrically it appears to be falling into line with expectations. I'll stay with it as want it to be right and do have a bit of room to spend getting it "up to snuf".

    You wouldn't have any other pertinent information on these either electrically, or mechanically would you? I continue to learn, but don't want to reinvent the wheel.

    Thanks,
     
  2. OFF

    OFF Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    HD Mechanic/Shop Foreman
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    I don't have an 80F manual, but it sounds like you have that already. Not sure what I have for schematics and build sheets, I'll have to look. One thing I do have that I always found invaluable when working on 80F's is a sort of internal schematic of all the different latching Potter/Broomfield relays they used.
    Also, somewhere under the boom, on top of the hydraulic swivel, is a set of electrical slip rings and carbon brushes. They were usually a source of trouble involving the lock out system.
     
  3. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
    Location:
    Farmington IL
    Hi and thanks for your help. It IS appreciated as I really don't have any experience with these things. I have rented/contracted/used literally dozens of them over the years. Now retired I wanted a good one for my personal use and knew the former owner quite well. I always thought he maintained his older stuff pretty well but I'm starting to question.....

    Yes these things are loaded with P&B style relays. Usually a very reliable and stable platform to build from. When I was installing back up power systems my designs always called for them, Struthers-Dunn, and many times Allen-Bradley switchgear. That is until national contracts were awarded to OEM suppliers whom vendored the complete shebang.....

    It did turn out the hydraulic tank level was too low for the middle section of the hydraulic pump, (responsible for boom elevation) to pick up fluid. There is a distributor box on the side of the hydraulic tank with four suction lines for each section of the main hydraulic pump, and auxiliary hydraulic pump. This center section of the hydraulic pump's suction hose is in one of the two top suction ports of the distributor box which is gravity fed from the main tank. Trusting in the hydraulic level dipstick, I was mislead as the level was below the suction port. After dumping in anther 5 gallon bucket of AW-32, the boom came right back to life with manual, and electric controls. However this is when I discovered the fragility of the interconnecting wiring. I went to relocate one ground wire from the "boom down" coil and it broke free of it's mounting. After removing the retention face plate of the solenoid valves, I could see the hot melt glue which is support for the 30ga magnet wire the coils are supported with was missing. Not only was it missing on this coil, but four more of the original six also. Only one magnet coil was intact as it should be. This is what I was alluding to when speaking of the leads hanging in "free space", and unsupported. I don't know if there were originally cable restraints incorporated anyplace, but I know zip ties weren't so much in fashion when the machine was originally built. There are gobs of electrical tape, wire nuts, and crimp connectors aplenty under the enclosure and within the main junction, ground control, and basket control boxes which are loaded with these "repairs". Neither of the terminal strips in the basket control box are mounted and are just kinda laying in there. These are just some examples of the hill I've yet to surmount. I'm going to get the machine inside the shop and pull all the proportional solenoids and attempt to repot the loose wiring. If not successful, I'll either have these rewound, or purchase new. They are 21ohm which is common for Racine valves if they are still around. I got an email back from the hydraulic shop and they can do my cylinders anytime as the Covid thing has really got them reduced in workload.

    I do have the three manuals for an 80F series lift. JLG had them online but I actually prefer the prints you provided early on as they are better interpreted by a novice. The analogy is the same between the units meaning terminations, nomenclature, colors, etc. I had seen in the prints a slip ring assembly but didn't know where it is physically located. Crocus cloth, or heavy canvas sheet does a good job cleaning those up when used with a good contact cleaner. They can be troublesome for sure and I've been to a lot of sites not passing signals because of brushes worn out, corrosion, or cross contamination from lack of maintenance on them.

    How's that for a book????? Hope someone else is learning through this ordeal as I am. Working on things keeps me from going "stir crazy" with no meaningful employment any longer.

    Thanks,
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
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  4. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
    Location:
    Farmington IL
    Yesterday when I had the one proportional valve solenoid coil apart and in my hand, I made a mental note there were three "O" rings which keep the oil in the valve with this assembly. Given there are six valves in total with this assembly I, (up early always) ordered up a generic sealing ring kit shown here to cover the spectrum: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GSKKHQM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1R5RH6SRZN4Q4&psc=1 These should cover the bases of whatever I get into over the rehab of this machine.

    Years ago we used to wind coils and motors for repair needs, but that was in another life before everything seemingly was being contracted out. I still have a coil winder, (someplace) but don't know if it will adapt to this style which is kind of like a bobbin for a sewing machine. Looking through old charts it looks like there is about 367ft of wire on these coils to attain the roughly 21ohm measurement. Of course this is just sideline guessing as I've not really delved into actual measurements with precision unless one considers standing beside something with a cheap multimeter and alligator clips precision..... Going to check with a supplier for JLG parts today, and a place we used to contract for sublet work to ascertain whether this is even justifiable to tool up for. It may be beneficial to purchase replacement parts and be done.....
     
  5. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
    Location:
    Farmington IL
    Not beneficial to replace wholesale if the existing can be repaired locally. $134.00 each is a bit steep in my book.

    Never was one with more money than brains, (albeit hardheaded) so I'll see about repairing the existing units before moving further.

    Stay tuned and thanks,
     
  6. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
    Location:
    Farmington IL
    This single coil with the leads pulled out will be the only one needing real addressing. The others should clean up relatively easy as all are saturated in hydraulic oil from leaking/seeping "O" ring seals. All ohm out very closely to one another. I am only going to show the one coil which is in the "boom down" position but the others are in the same condition although they retain their respective leads.

    Here is a shot of the valve prior to pulling from the body and just after the retaining face plate is removed. As you can see there is no support to the leads which exit the housing/coil assembly. The bottom valve is the "boom down" coil which has it's leads broken off:

    upload_2020-11-30_19-53-46.jpeg

    This is the valve assembly pulled from the machine. Looking closely you can see the two 28AWG wire leads protruding from the case:

    upload_2020-11-30_19-47-51.jpeg

    As can be seen there is nothing supporting the 16AWG wire leads which were soldered to these much smaller leads.

    This is the coil internal to the valve assembly with the insulating wrap mostly removed. Hydraulic oil had disintegrated the adhesive bond of this white insulating wrap:

    upload_2020-11-30_19-50-8.jpeg

    Here is another view of the coil which closely resembles a sewing machine "bobbin" showing the parted leads:

    upload_2020-11-30_19-51-16.jpeg

    All the coils ohm out very close to one another meaning 21.226ohms @ 70 degrees Fahrenheit. This should equate to 319.81 feet but who's counting?

    Once that "O" ring kit comes in I'll get these addressed and cleaned up. I still have insulating coil wrap and varnish, so this shouldn't be too painful to accomplish and get things back reliable. I do need to order fresh solvent to clean up the coils as it doesn't last that long evaporating quickly once opened.
     
  7. OFF

    OFF Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    HD Mechanic/Shop Foreman
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Here's that P/B relay stuff
    PB relays.jpg
     
  8. OFF

    OFF Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    HD Mechanic/Shop Foreman
    Location:
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    How about a Racine Valve manual?
     

    Attached Files:

  9. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
    Location:
    Farmington IL
    Thanks a bunch. Both of those will be great assets to have in the arsenal to maintaining this thing. I've never been one to throw in the towel easily and certainly don't intend to with this machine, but want to maintain it to the best of my ability. I'm not one that likes to view schematics on a computer screen but rather have the print in front of me with both a shop copy, and an office copy. Paperwork heavy I know but don't have to worry about getting something dirty.

    Thanks kindly,
     
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  10. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
    Location:
    Farmington IL
    Located an adequate length of 16/30 "SOOW" cable for restringing the boom assembly. The extra conductors will allow for mounting of platform, and worklights in/on the basket which will be LED types to stay within the lower ampacity confines of the smaller wiring.
     
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  11. OFF

    OFF Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    HD Mechanic/Shop Foreman
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    having a few spare wires in the bundle never hurt either. Down the road when one breaks, you switch to a new, unused wire.
     
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  12. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
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    Yes, they can be a "godsend" in a time of crisis if they are correctly identified or isolated on the prints so other's know they are there and purpose. Many times this isn't done and it's a headache ringing wires to find non continuity ends, or terminations.
     
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  13. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
    Location:
    Farmington IL
    I really put the "hurts" to the existing wiring when I raised the boom full stroke. I didn't photo it but many conductors, (wires) are broken or pulled apart at the cable anchors where the boom hinges from the main frame to the actual boom. This of course is where the cable flexes as the boom is elevated or lowered. The original soft and supple EPDM jacket of the cable isn't so soft any longer and the boom operation has taken it's toll.....

    I ordered a couple rolls of "Kapton" tape in 1/2", and 1" width today as mine is getting some age on so time for fresh.
     
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  14. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
    Location:
    Farmington IL
    I found out just how heavy this SOB is today by parking where I shouldn't have..... On a slight downward incline with the steering axle and couterweight over it. It only sunk about four inches into the ground setting overnight given the rains of late. It wouldn't pull itself out, (one wheel wonder) so had to cable up with my 12K cable winch into the receiver hitch on my Durango for some tugging. This only served to pull the Durango backwards under the pull, so I chained to a tree in the yard and that gave the anchorage needed. If I'd have had someone standing on the service brakes it would have been fine I'm sure, but I was alone so used the next best option. Anyway the lift walked right out of the divots and I put everything away without further adieu.

    I would have thought however both drive wheels would have been pulling unless there is a weak link someplace in that chain; (flow divider)? Regardless I've got wiring issues to address/rectify first and not going any further than this first.

    Did learn another lesson with quality of late too: On Saturday I did a full tuning of the engine with Motorcraft spark plugs. One of them went near 45min of run time before ceasing to fire on #3 cylinder. Finding this a bit odd, I replaced with the original Motorcraft spark plug that had resided there to restore normal running. Another hour and a half or so, #1 cylinder ceases to fire? I called "bullshit" with this one, pulled the plugs, and replaced them with Champion. I used the locally owned "Carquest" store for a vendor so I'll get them credited back to my account. I think the engine actually runs better now than it did with the fresh Motorcraft plugs installed. Regardless, plugs, points, condensor, (capacitor) wires, cap, rotor are all new along with the ignition coil and ballast resistor. It should be running right with a good tuning..... Can't find a timing mark anyplace and it's probably on the bottom of the flywheel but I've not looked.
     
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  15. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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    Sorry to say good luck with the Champoons, I stopped using them for the same due causes twenty years ago switched up to NGK as Champoons and Motorcraps are now as bad as each other or worse than Prestolite Ign Products decades ago. AC Delco was another trusted name yet it also has bad reviews now.
     
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  16. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
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    Farmington IL
    Don't I know it. I asked for Bosch, or NGK but they didn't have them and the engine was running very sick. It's underpowered as is but with only hitting on three, was very bad. To the tune of not wanting to start.

    Yup, once Federal-Mogul got their hands into anything, the brands usually went to pot. Bosch seems to be doing the same just as Stanley did, Black and Decker did, etc..... All about the $$$ with complete disregard to retaining quality.

    Even Carquest has sold out to Advance Auto Parts. Walk in and try to get a mechanical fuel pump, (not one in the store) intake gasket set for a 70's SBC, Ford, or Chrysler, (warehouse has it and be here in the morning) sealed beam headlight bulbs, etc. Corporate structure is only interested in fast moving items with disregard to what got them where they are. Once the assets are stripped, the entity is done away with. Sustainability does not seem to be a factor.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
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  17. mitch504

    mitch504 Senior Member

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    My first choice on plugs is nippondenso, if you can find them for that application.
     
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  18. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
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    May as well update this thread a bit. I soldered new leads onto the broken actuator coils after degreasing them in an electronics cleaning bath. All went well and operation is now normal for both "up", and "down" functions of the boom. I haven't yet received the ordered "O" ring sealing kits, but in the interim I robbed the stock at a local implement dealer. After cleaning the coils the new wire leads soldered easily and I then "potted" the assembly with a hot melt insulating adhesive marketed for the purpose. Don't really think they'll go anyplace in the short term although there will be strain reliefs added to ensure they don't "flop around" from the vibration they must endure.

    The engine starts very easily in the high 20's temperature we've been experiencing of late. Just a few revolutions of the fan and she roars to life. I need to feather the electric solenoid choke for about five seconds till the engine stabilizes and then no further interaction is required. I did find an intermittent circuit breaker in the basket which is inline for the 12VDC to the controls. This thing is very unreliable so is going to be replaced as will all the others. The amperage stamps on their respective faces are far gone and only reading the stencil impressions on their sides is indicative of their respective current ratings. God only knows if they would actually work.....

    Given the amount of corrosion in this machine's electrical systems, I'm going to replace, (or have for ready spares) all four P&B style relays, their respective sockets, circuit breakers, and most likely a couple of other toggle switches in the basket which are "sloppy" in feel".

    The fun never ends......
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
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  19. 1693TA

    1693TA Senior Member

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    FAA Radar Engineer, (Retired)
    Location:
    Farmington IL
    Bit of a setback today as I've once again lost ability to raise the boom. Neither electric control, nor manual use of the proportional valves have any effect. I may have blown the seals in the lift cylinder bore as all other functions of the proportional valve bank operate normally, as do the solenoid actuated valve functions. It is only the boom raising that is inoperable with both turntable swing, and driving wheels sharing that same oil supply and operating normally. This lift cylinder needs rebuilt regardless citing external leakage and the schedule may be hastened. At first I thought a blown hose, but no streaming oil anyplace when attempting to raise the boom, and a substantially decreased load on the engine when commanding either up, or down action of the boom. Basically that section is not building hydraulic pressure and hopefully I'll get into it tomorrow.
     
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  20. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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