EV

[cfherrman]

Ran some rough math, it'd actually cost me MORE over 20 years to have solar installed than to just stay connected to the grid with no solar.

Realistically I wouldn't be able to fully disconnect from the grid as there are times of the year where we get very little sun. I would need to supplement the solar to some degree. The fixed costs of staying connected to the grid, even using ZERO power negate any cost benefit of doing solar. YMMV.

Off grid systems will nearly 100% off the time will cost more then the grid.

The top half of the us typically solar is not a cost effective option.

Grid tie is typically the best cost effective option.

Anything with batteries or a generator will be more expensive than a grid.

 

[Truck Shop]

Unless you have direct vent oven the heat will eventually dissipate into the room, just speeding up the process is all. Still will have same effect of warming the place up, negligible.

Well I do it that way because my hands are cold this time of year, and she's normally got something cooking
in the oven. So I stand there and warm my hands. Arthritis.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Off grid systems will nearly 100% off the time will cost more then the grid.

The top half of the us typically solar is not a cost effective option.

Grid tie is typically the best cost effective option.

Anything with batteries or a generator will be more expensive than a grid.

You got all that right. 80k to build a good system with all the T+M and then 60 cents a kwh after that by my spreadsheet I did years ago. Battery deterioration costs $1k per year. Generator maintenance can cost hundreds/thousands and then you have the fuel burn and the wearout factor.

Although 60 cents per kwh here in Ca, sometimes they seem to be getting close.

 

[Truck Shop]

There's a pole in the alley with a wire running to my house, I come home get something to eat,
go in and turn the computer on and Viola---HEF. When it wants to log on. I'm not screwing with
other power possibilities, I remember my dad going up on the roof to turn the antenna so we
could watch Twilight Zone, almost fell off and busted his a$$. I'm not going to spend my time
chasing pennies-rather be typing crap like this on HEF.

 

[westerner]

So I stand there and warm my hands. Arthritis.

This right here got me to actually liking washing dishes.....

 

[Truck Shop]

This right here got me to actually liking washing dishes.....

That would work, I worked in high school pearl diving at a truck stop, I cleaned all the plates with eggs
and cigarette ashes I'm going to, have a dishwasher. My hands got a work out as a kid on the dairy farm,
pulled enough titties, not going to do that anymore either.
Later on when I started living on my own I would buy the cheapest pots and pans I could find and plates
plus silverware from Goodwill or Salvation Army. When I used them up all in the garbage they went and
back to Goodwill I went, saved time when moving too.

 

[Spud_Monkey]

You got all that right. 80k to build a good system with all the T+M and then 60 cents a kwh after that by my spreadsheet I did years ago. Battery deterioration costs $1k per year. Generator maintenance can cost hundreds/thousands and then you have the fuel burn and the wearout factor.

Although 60 cents per kwh here in Ca, sometimes they seem to be getting close.

I'm way ahead if that is correct. That would be $20k saved by not having the grid ran to me, most I ever paid for forklift battery is $3500 dated 2021 I hope it lasts me over 3.5 years, other battery ran me $1500 and only reason I bought another one is to go from 24V to 48V and I need the extra power.
Still on the $800 generator from 3 years ago to desulfate the battery and balance it out. With LiFePO4 I wouldn't need that stinking generator. Run it about once a month to desulfate for about 4 hours which is less than 3 gallons other times I run it to weld when cloudy for more than a day and that's only a hour or two.
It's living as if you are still on the grid is what kills those in costs instead of changing your lifestyle for a lifestyle not meant for everyone. Use nature to help supplement your electric needs naturally other ways. Heating and cooling can be mitigated mostly using nature too.

 

[cfherrman]

Yeah if you have no grid it's a whole different story. I can't remember what our e cost is but it was around 13 cents

 

[Birken Vogt]

I'm talking about labor and installation costs also, everybody's time is worth something (a lot) and most home brew off gridders don't bother with conduit or fuses and breakers or enclosures so that saves a lot but you can't count that as savings because when it's time to sell, it is all worthless if it looks like a science fair project.

 

[DMiller]

I loved when a volunteer estimator stated would HAVE to reroof the house and shop, HAS to be Asphaltic Shingles to set the Array on. Looked at him, said will be free standing or not at all, his return was "They are Permanent Installs on Roofs alone, No Free Standing systems in his inventory", ran his ass OFF. Idiocy prevails in these markets, about as bad as roofing hail Damage estimators/vultures/leaches.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Free standing are easy, holes, pipes and concrete. Also easy to work on, I have to wonder how many rooftop systems are broken or not working out there. Off grid people know when their stuff is broken because they see the drop in power/genset run on sunny days. Rooftop people will never know except their bill will be higher, they just shrug and pay it. Solar systems do need maintenance and repair from time to time. Especially with the fly by nights who put them up. That is why the ground is better. Seen some bad ground ones too though.

 

[John C.]

I attended the annual conference of the Equipment Appraisers of North America this week. I pay a fair amount of money to go to this conference every year and I consider it money well spent.

One of the really interesting classes was done by an insider of the electric car industry. He showed the plusses and minuses of those cars.

First point was that without Musk there would be no electric cars at all at this point in history. He also explained that Musk knows nothing about electric cars and was hired by the founders of the organization to head up the sales force. Musk was employee number four, not one, two or three. The first batteries used when they started were a little bigger than double A size consumer battery and were put together in packets. There were 7,000 of those small batteries used on the early cars. The cells they are using now are a little larger and they are finding out the life cycles of the batteries are far longer than first thought.

Electric motor driven cars are inevitable because the motor is around 90% efficient with the energy use while a gas engine is around 20% efficient. Problems with the EV is the battery system and how to charge it. There are approximately 146,000 gas stations in the US and only around 6,000 EV charging stations. The charging station issue is complicated because of being able to charge the batteries at home on a Level 3 charger. That takes about 8 to 10 hours to charge your EV back up. The chargers on the highways are Super Chargers which take about half and hour to charge an EV. I don't remember how many cars are currently in use but he did state that and a projection of how long it would take for natural turn over to occur to replace all with electric would be around 35 years. He compared the state of the industry to the first part of the auto industry. His graphic showed a model A Ford next to a Ford Lightning pickup. He said it took a hundred years to evolve the gas engines and the cars as a whole to get to this point. Tesla started in 2003 so we are only 22 years into development of the EV to this point. Other key points were about battery chemistry, the physical shape and size of the batteries noting that there are no standards for that yet and every manufacturer is doing something completely different. He also noted that Musk sucks the air out of the room whenever he walks in but without him we would not have been anywhere near where we are now in development.

He was asked about the government incentives to promote the industry and he gave lots or examples of government incentives that were done for the fossil fuel industry over the years as well.

 

[92U 3406]

Electric vehicles will still never excite to the level of a cammed 396.

 

[John C.]

Thanks for the reminder. The gentleman said that there isn't a gas engine made that can compare to the instant torque of an electric car.

 

[92U 3406]

Sound is easily half of the fun of the driving experience. I just don't see the excitement stemming from an oversized sewing machine.


This as lame AF if you ask me.

 

[John C.]

The story he related is that he was riding in a Tesla with a friend going around a clover leaf getting onto a freeway when his friend said lets see what this thing will do. He slammed the throttle pedal to the floor and nearly lost complete control of the car. They were in the turn when the sudden torque overtook the steering and the car over road the steering and suddenly went straight nearly sending the car into the weeds and ditches.

 

[Delmer]

There's nothing inevitable about EV's at all. The natural gas burned to produce the electricity is not 90% efficient and will not be in the lifetime of most current EV's. EV's have been around before Henry built his first natural gas engine on his kitchen counter, they were overtaken because gasoline, a byproduct of kerosene production, was found to be a better store of energy than batteries of the time. EV's are the current shiny object and will be promoted because all the cool kids have them.

Just like PV, there is nothing inevitable about PV, lots of better ways to save energy etc. etc. whatever your "goal" is. PV is the shiny object that all the cool kids have to have. The economics of scale (production, installation and maintenance infrastructure) will favor PV and Li ion batteries, but these were choices that were dictated by govt, and I believe were not the best choices or place to focus.

If you remember twenty-thirty years ago, everything in the future was going to be paperless, and remote. Hasn't happened and without covid, maybe it never would have? seems like there is a very current shift to remote work. To me, Musks hyperloop is as interesting as anything he has done with EV's. The travel that is needed can be hyperloop, and the commuting is no longer needed.

 

[John C.]

Electric power sources was another topic at the conference. I’ll report on that later. Fossil fuels are not part of long term planning at this time. Reality may change that.

The EV speaker was a program manager for big gas engines for one of the big three car manufacturers at another time in his life.

 

[terex herder]

I've heard that before about the power available with an electric car. There are a lot of drivers that shouldn't have that much acceleration potential under their foot. Maybe a permanent valet mode? Heck, even gasoline cars are so powerful the NHRA had to redo their rules as factory cars are so fast under the old rules roll cages and competition licenses were required to make a pass down the race track with a street legal, DOT approved car.

We have to remember the quoted efficiency of the electric car is the propulsion efficiency. It doesn't factor in the climate control system. The climate control system is ran most by waste heat or slight parasitic loads in an ICE vehicle. In an EV the climate control system is often a much greater load on the battery than propulsion.

John, I look forward to your report on the fossil fuel generation.

 

[Delmer]

90% of the day to day problems with renewable electricity go away if we just have our grid retail pricing reflect wholesale pricing minute to minute. My water heater, heat pump, chest freezer, all can be shut off for 2 hours with no consequences, more if I had to. That raises a whole new set of problems though, like Gore, Nader and Hunter being in charge of the pricing, strongly influenced by China's social credit score system, and manipulated by those who learned at enron. I'm afraid the grid would no longer be an infrastructure asset to this country.