Those may be made for gasoline and might not pass enough diesel. Seems like this has come up before, if it idles fine now but doesn't have power, that filter is the first thing to suspect. A filter base that fits a cheap oil filter is what I like to use.
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Deere 450B with hoe and 4 in 1 bucket...
- Thread starter hetkind
- Start date
hetkind
Senior Member
The stories about cheap fuel filters...probably the best stories I have heard (and seen) are the small power equipment filters for 1/4" hose, often seen in bins on the counters of autoparts and lawnmower shops. They are GREAT at a quart per hour/once a week on a 3.5 hp mower, but on a 50hp motorcycle using the same 1/4" hose, the smallest amount of water will swell the paper and produce a no flow condition even though the filter LOOKS clean. In my particular vintage motorcycle community (BMW Airheads), we carry a spare piece of fuel hose, zip tied to the frame rail to bypass the filter, on the side of the road, if needed.
The filters I stock are Wix and rated for gas and diesel and provide sufficient flow even for the flathead six in the M37 climbing a hill, will a full load. If I have any difficulty I will follow your advice and get the cheap oil filter external mount kit and use the big ford filters, PH8A, but in the Wix brand.
The tank is dry on the inside now, once I vacuum up some remaining debris in the drain sump, I will reassemble, reprime and see what happens.
Howard
hetkind
Senior Member
And the reprime failed...it is the lift pump. Took off the inlet and it is producing NO suction. However, tank is nice and clean with new fuel! New lift pump, from Amazon will be in on Friday.
By the time I get done, the fuel system will be in tip top shape.
Howard
By the time I get done, the fuel system will be in tip top shape.
Howard
Don k
Well-Known Member
After I cleaned mine all out like you did which was probably 10 years ago have not had any problems. The 450's are very good machines for their size.
hetkind
Senior Member
Actually, the opposite, the lever moves VERY easily, and when I place my finger over the intake, I feel NO suction. At $26 for a new pump, I will replace it, but will examine the old pump when it comes out. I suspect the diaphragm might have been damaged during the clean out process. The fitting will be cleaned before they are swapped to the new pump.
I am looking forward to actually using the machine, and I like Don K advice also.
Howard
repowerguy
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2015
- Messages
- 810
- Location
- United States southern Ohio
- Occupation
- mixer truck mechanic
The inline fuel filter idea will work no problem, I have used one for years on my 450 and 310 hoe without a hitch. It will keep the dirt out of your pump and it will last a lot longer. Several years ago I was a mechanic at a paving co. and all the equipment with engines in the power range of the 450 had a inline fuel filters on them, we called it a rock stopper. It was cheap and fast to change on the road and get the roller or paver back in the game. I was constantly fighting dirty fuel and this was my best option.
hetkind
Senior Member
The Wix 33001 with 1/4 hose size fits well and has the same filter as the 33002 which is the 5/16 hose barb. I stock those for the generator and the motorcycles. Looking forward to reporting on the effectiveness.
I would just avoid the cheapies desinged for lawnmowers! I am getting my fuel from a new fuel facility, at the top of a hill, with good ground water control, into new NFPA 30 metal cans, stored under cover. So the fuel going in is going to fresh and clean. I too fight bad fuel...my daughter got a bad tank of fuel south of Corpus Christi a few months ago and her car hasn't run quite right since.
Howard
hetkind
Senior Member
News...I got news. I got the tractor running this morning. Finally tracked it down to a sticking check valve in the return line from the injector pump.
Here is list of what I went through:
First step was fuel filters, they were clogged with black algae, then prime, prime and prime
Second was cleaning the tank, draining, pressure washing, drying and blowing down the lines between the tank and the filters, through the lift pump. Tank was coated with algae on the inside.
Third, replaced lift pump, because pump was a bit dodgy. Pump was ordered before tank was cleaned, just in case.
Fourth, bleed from tank to injector pump until clean, using the new lift pump, that worked a whole lot better. Suddenly it is four strokes to prime from tank to filters, not 400.
Finally, this morning blew down the return line, then when line was clean but still no flow from return fitting, pulled the check valve and cleaned.
After that, restarted and ran like a champ, let it run for a good 30 minutes just to make sure. I suspect some of the algae might of gotten past the filters into the injector pump.
The stuck check valve was the proximate cause of the problem, but lack of fuel system maintenance, as in black algae infestation, was a contributing cause.
Out of pockets costs for the work...
$31 for lift pump and gasket
$5 for spray cleaner
$50 for 30 gallons diesel
$100 for 4x4 cribbing to hold bucket up for engine access
$56 new fuel filters and one sediment bowl
and $250 for other parts ordered when found to be bad while doing the work, like a piece of exhaust pipe and a valve cover gasket.
Plus an oil change, since the filter had to come off to change out the lift pump, so add $25 for that
Plus, thanks to the wife who after her day job, put on a set of greasies and helped bleed and troubleshoot.
My line wrenches haven't seen this much use in YEARS.
Howard
Here is list of what I went through:
First step was fuel filters, they were clogged with black algae, then prime, prime and prime
Second was cleaning the tank, draining, pressure washing, drying and blowing down the lines between the tank and the filters, through the lift pump. Tank was coated with algae on the inside.
Third, replaced lift pump, because pump was a bit dodgy. Pump was ordered before tank was cleaned, just in case.
Fourth, bleed from tank to injector pump until clean, using the new lift pump, that worked a whole lot better. Suddenly it is four strokes to prime from tank to filters, not 400.
Finally, this morning blew down the return line, then when line was clean but still no flow from return fitting, pulled the check valve and cleaned.
After that, restarted and ran like a champ, let it run for a good 30 minutes just to make sure. I suspect some of the algae might of gotten past the filters into the injector pump.
The stuck check valve was the proximate cause of the problem, but lack of fuel system maintenance, as in black algae infestation, was a contributing cause.
Out of pockets costs for the work...
$31 for lift pump and gasket
$5 for spray cleaner
$50 for 30 gallons diesel
$100 for 4x4 cribbing to hold bucket up for engine access
$56 new fuel filters and one sediment bowl
and $250 for other parts ordered when found to be bad while doing the work, like a piece of exhaust pipe and a valve cover gasket.
Plus an oil change, since the filter had to come off to change out the lift pump, so add $25 for that
Plus, thanks to the wife who after her day job, put on a set of greasies and helped bleed and troubleshoot.
My line wrenches haven't seen this much use in YEARS.
Howard
mitch504
Senior Member
You need to put some algicide in your next few tanks of fuel, I've been through that, and it only takes one tiny piece to start it all up again, particularly on a machine that's not running 40hrs/wk. I had really good results from Startron, but others on here have had good results from others, just make sure it kills algae.
Good luck,
Mitch
(I won't mention out loud how smart it was to publicly thank your wife, I wouldn't want her to hear me.)
Good luck,
Mitch
(I won't mention out loud how smart it was to publicly thank your wife, I wouldn't want her to hear me.)
hetkind
Senior Member
And it continues...
Where we left off, we had gotten the tractor running by cleaning the check valve, and let it run a bit while doing other maintenance, 3 quarts oil to transmission, about the same to the hydraulic system and three tubes of grease or so to all the zerk fitting. Plus we changed out the hydraulic filters, both by the radiator (spin on) and the big return strainer in the hydraulic tank. When we drained the externally rusted hydraulic filter, thick black out came out and when we cut it apart, the filter element was black and I suspect in bypass mode. The strainer looked OK aside from pieces of Teflon tape here and there.
This morning, we actually put the machine to use and it dies twice, in 20 minutes, with a clogged check valve. Got it back to the shop, front bucket blocked per the manual with 24" 4x4x1/4 angle and the timing window removed to reveal...more chunks of black material, that look rubber like.
This indicates to me that the injector pump needs to come off and take a ride downtown to our local "diesel sales and service" organization. They have a typical three day turn around and rebuilds start at $525. I guess I will be doing some OTHER maintenance, like clean the valve cover vent tube (fuel filters need to come out for that) and probably replace some hose pieces on the turbocharger intake and the turbo to valve cover drain hose, verify the turbo oil supply line is clean and adjust the valves, since the valve cover needs to come off to time the engine.
And that the algae in the fuel system was unrelated to the failure of the injection pump.
Now I see why I got a low hour tractor for such a good price!
On the other hand, the transmission seem good and the engine sounds great when it runs.
Yours in frustration,
Howard
Where we left off, we had gotten the tractor running by cleaning the check valve, and let it run a bit while doing other maintenance, 3 quarts oil to transmission, about the same to the hydraulic system and three tubes of grease or so to all the zerk fitting. Plus we changed out the hydraulic filters, both by the radiator (spin on) and the big return strainer in the hydraulic tank. When we drained the externally rusted hydraulic filter, thick black out came out and when we cut it apart, the filter element was black and I suspect in bypass mode. The strainer looked OK aside from pieces of Teflon tape here and there.
This morning, we actually put the machine to use and it dies twice, in 20 minutes, with a clogged check valve. Got it back to the shop, front bucket blocked per the manual with 24" 4x4x1/4 angle and the timing window removed to reveal...more chunks of black material, that look rubber like.
This indicates to me that the injector pump needs to come off and take a ride downtown to our local "diesel sales and service" organization. They have a typical three day turn around and rebuilds start at $525. I guess I will be doing some OTHER maintenance, like clean the valve cover vent tube (fuel filters need to come out for that) and probably replace some hose pieces on the turbocharger intake and the turbo to valve cover drain hose, verify the turbo oil supply line is clean and adjust the valves, since the valve cover needs to come off to time the engine.
And that the algae in the fuel system was unrelated to the failure of the injection pump.
Now I see why I got a low hour tractor for such a good price!
On the other hand, the transmission seem good and the engine sounds great when it runs.
Yours in frustration,
Howard
Yes, that sounds right. Lantraxco agrees I assume, or he would have said otherwise.
Black rubber/ "coffee grounds" means a rebuild. The algae is a separate problem but could have been caused by the pump quitting and the machine sitting unused letting the algae grow.
Could be worse.
Black rubber/ "coffee grounds" means a rebuild. The algae is a separate problem but could have been caused by the pump quitting and the machine sitting unused letting the algae grow.
Could be worse.
Yeah, should have spoke up I guess, that's the classic symptom of the drive ring (I think that's the name) coming apart. Thepumpguysc as I recall says when they finally fail completely you have a runaway.... so yes, it's time to hie thyself to yon pump palace for a bit of renewal.
hetkind
Senior Member
Looks like I am finally down to the meat and potatoes of the project...now it is time to "time" the engine. On a gas motor, this would be a trivial task, remove plug one, find compression stroke, and time TDC on flywheel.
On this tractor, just removing the valve cover requires a variety of other parts to be removed, and then rotate engine via fan belt. I adjusted the fan belt last week as a test and got the engine to rotate via the fan, after running a bit it is loose again, so perhaps a fan belt, but that involves detaching the hydraulic pump coupler and moving the pump forward for clearance.
I need to slow down so I can enjoy this project!
While things like undercarriage and steering clutches are new to me (which I why I sent the piece of work out), heavy engine work is "old hat" from when I used to maintain the fleet of IH school buses back about 35 years.
Let me clear a little time this week and get to it
Thanks for all the great advice so far.
Howard
On this tractor, just removing the valve cover requires a variety of other parts to be removed, and then rotate engine via fan belt. I adjusted the fan belt last week as a test and got the engine to rotate via the fan, after running a bit it is loose again, so perhaps a fan belt, but that involves detaching the hydraulic pump coupler and moving the pump forward for clearance.
I need to slow down so I can enjoy this project!
While things like undercarriage and steering clutches are new to me (which I why I sent the piece of work out), heavy engine work is "old hat" from when I used to maintain the fleet of IH school buses back about 35 years.
Let me clear a little time this week and get to it
Thanks for all the great advice so far.
Howard
hetkind
Senior Member
Right...normally I watch the #1 intake valve to time on TDC...if there is an easier way, I would love to know. I found the hydraulic pump disconnect, and let me see how rusty THAT is, so I can scope out the trouble in putting a new fan belt on. Every task it seems has two or three preliminary tasks. By the time I get done, this will be one well maintained tractor.
And how would you recommend rotating the engine to find #1 TDC?
Howard
repowerguy
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2015
- Messages
- 810
- Location
- United States southern Ohio
- Occupation
- mixer truck mechanic
On my 450 I was fortunate enough to have a pto so I used that to roll over the engine. There really isn't a good way to ease one around, maybe a dummy shaft where the hyd pump goes?
To time the motor, take off the timing window on the pump and turn the motor till the pin slips in the flywheel, if the lines are lined up on the discs in the pump, it's on 1 tdc. I hope I explained it so you can understand, sometimes I live in my head and struggle to be understood.
To time the motor, take off the timing window on the pump and turn the motor till the pin slips in the flywheel, if the lines are lined up on the discs in the pump, it's on 1 tdc. I hope I explained it so you can understand, sometimes I live in my head and struggle to be understood.
hetkind
Senior Member
I understand just fine where the timing marks are, is the mechanics of turning the engine over and getting the valve cover off so I can watch the valvetrain to see when #1 TDC is coming around.
It looks like my best bet is to put a new fan belt on and turn the engine over with the hydraulic pump disconnected via the fan.
Howard
I think repowerguy was trying to say you don't need to pull the valve cover. If you remove the little timing window from the side of the injection pump, the timing marks in the pump will only line up on TDC #1. Pop the pin in the flywheel hole and you're good to go.