Deere 450B with hoe and 4 in 1 bucket...

[lantraxco]

Sounds like you're on the right track, if you had black goo in the filters you can bet the tank strainer is clogged, if it's still there. Sounds like you have a small compressor, you could probably pump it up until it shuts off and then transport it to the machine, should have enough in the tank to blow out a fuel line.

As far as the priming pump, the Deeres I remember had a diaphragm pump with a little priming lever on the side, when you move the lever it's actually pushing a spring back and the spring pumps fuel on the off stroke. When fuel pressure comes up it holds the diaphragm up off the cam and the lever gets real easy to move because it's no longer doing any work. If the engine stops in the wrong spot and the fuel pump lever is up on the cam lobe, you can't move it enough to make it pump, have to bump the engine over a bit first.

Another thing to check is the fuel outlet fitting on the injection pump and the return line to the tank, make sure they're clear. A clogged return will make the engine lose power and/or die also.

 

[hetkind]

Thank you...I will go collect my portable compressor and lay down some extension cord.

I don't totally agree on the function of the priming lever, because the more up pump, the more resistance you get, it just takes a long while and I have raised a blister on that finger, so I think it is directly moving the diaphragm, as does the rocker from the cam eccentric. If it was simply charging a spring, the force would be constant

So if the cam is up, the diaphragm can't move down and complete a stroke...and I wonder if the lift pump has an internal check valve that might be gunked up.

When my lovely wife asked me about weekend plans, I just pointed at our new lawn ornament.

Howard

 

[lantraxco]

The lift pump will have both an inlet and an outlet check valve.

Hope you get her perking.

 

[hetkind]

Spray cleaner, here we come...

 

[Don k]

If you have black crap in the tank do yourself a favor. Putt the tank and clean it out. Pressure washer steam cleaner or something with some force behind it. Check for the strainer in the line. It either needs to be replaced or left out. Cut the line going to the lift pump and put in a cheap automotive fuel filter. Change the main fuel filter. You may have already messed up your injector pump by getting crap into it. Why do I know this? I have a 450 C and did this.

 

[hetkind]

I suspect you are probably correct...I am slowly eliminating the other possible issues. I blew down the fuel line between the tank and the lift pump and found a check valve somewhere in the middle, that doesn't show up in the manual.

The fuel coming out of the tank looks pretty clean, but I will pressure wash/steam clean as soon as I get it to my shop...now to find a good local shop to rebuild the pump.

Howard

 

[Welder Dave]

I think I'd be asking why the dealer never bothered to look at the fuel system when you told them about it. They say waitresses should always right down what someone orders even it's only a couple items so there's no confusion as to what exactly was ordered. I think when you're paying $100+ an hour to have a dealer work on your machine, they should right down in detail everything you want looked at and then advise if it's going to be more costly than expected. I would be nice about it (at first) and get the dealer out to get your machine going because it was their mistake not yours. If they had at least changed the filters and it quit is one thing but it sounds like they didn't do anything with the fuel system. You paid them enough they could get it going for you.

 

[hetkind]

You raise a very interesting point...the machine loaded fine when I bought it, and unloaded fine when it got dropped off...and it went straight to the dealer for undercarriage and clutches after I bought it. The dealer did NOT cause the problem and I think they just wanted the machine out of the bay so other paying work could come in. Since the young mechanics removed some of the parts with hammers, there was a delay in reassembly. I have trouble paying $100/hr to mechanics the age of my children.

However, let me troubleshoot the fuel issue before I start spreading blame around. Right now the blame is on ME for not catching the issue when I purchased the machine and I was hoping to catch up on the rest of the maintenance myself once the machine got to my shop.

I learned long ago that trusting maintenance to an outside shop is expensive and often frustrating. I learned my lesson years ago when I bought my first BMW motorcycle and I became the cash cow with repeated visits on a new machine that refused to idle and kept leaking fork oil, visit after visit, under warranty.

I will clean the fuel system and have a local diesel shop rebuild the injector pump.

Howard

 

[hetkind]

Well, progress...

We pumped out the tank into five gallon buckets using a 1.9 gallon capacity vacuum fluid evacuator, something I normally use to bleed brakes and clean motorcycle tanks. Black and nasty in certain layers. We started pressure washing but it started sleeting. The amount of black crud is truly amazing.

We got the bucket up far enough with a couple of high lift jacks and held by a pair of custom made 25k lbs capacity sawhorses, built to support the fabrication of trusses.

I found a local vendor to rebuild the injection pump, pump has been cleaned, fan belt adjusted so we can turn the engine over with the fan. Next is to pull the valve cover so we can find #1 TDC and pull the pump.

And it has a turbo...I didn't think the B's came with Turbos.

Can I interest anyone in five buckets of waste diesel?

Insulated coveralls in the washing machine for a long wash cycle!

Howard

 

[Delmer]

What makes you think the injection pump is the problem? it seems beyond obvious that you have fuel supply problems, so it would make sense to fix those first before digging the hole deeper.

I agree with lantraxco about how the priming pump works, but it's easy enough to figure it out with some temporary hoses and a container of fuel. The priming pump either isn't working well, is pumping up as it's supposed to, or is pulling a vacuum. Experiment by changing some lines around and you'll know in seconds. Another option is to use a temporary tank and filter if yours is messed up as much as it sounds.


"I am slowly eliminating the other possible issues. I blew down the fuel line between the tank and the lift pump and found a check valve somewhere in the middle, that doesn't show up in the manual."

That sounds suspicious to me, are you sure the dealer didn't shut off a valve? "somewhere in the middle"? is that a check valve, a clog, or a valve that's closed?

 

[hetkind]

Thanks so much for the input. The more input I get, the more information I have to work with. I am still coming up to speed on the diesel mechanic aspects and let me run down my personal logic trail and share it with you. And comments are most certainly welcome. I only quit work today due to freezing rain and ice pellets.

If I pull the hose from the tank, downstream of the petcock, I get good flow of fuel. And I can blow down the line between the tank and the lift pump with 125 psi compressed air VERY easily. However, I cannot blow from the lift pump (line disconnected) back to the tank. There is excellent one way flow, so that to me indicated a check valve that is properly working.

I am able to pull fuel from the tank and pressurize the filters with the engine off using the priming feature, so the lift pump is working.

However, once I pressurize the filters and try to start, I get a brief run, up to 30 seconds or so, the engine OVERSPEEDS and shuts off. Then I lose pressure in the filters.

The overspeeding to me leads to issues with the injection pump since that controls the engine speed.

So, once the tank is fully clean, and the lines and filters are clean, (just need to blow down the return line, currently unhooked from the tank), what is left is the injection pump, and the overspeed condition is directly traceable to the injection pump.

The valve cover needs to come off anyhow to adjust the valves, and the local injection pump rebuilder is only a few blocks from wife's office in town. An unresolved overspeed can get expensive very quickly...and that is a governor issue and with Roosta Master pumps, the governor is built into the injection pump.

Please walkdown my logic and see if I have made some bad assumption along the way. While I would rather not incur the additional expense of rebuilding the pump (normal rebuild cost from this vendor is around $525), I also would rather not trash the engine.

What is interesting is that there are bands of clean fuel and dirty fuel in the tank...separated by buoyancy is my guess. The tank will be clean on inside before it gets rehooked to the engine.

And Don K, a few posts up experienced the black goo in the tank failing the injector pump on a 450C.

Howard

What makes you think the injection pump is the problem? it seems beyond obvious that you have fuel supply problems, so it would make sense to fix those first before digging the hole deeper.

I agree with lantraxco about how the priming pump works, but it's easy enough to figure it out with some temporary hoses and a container of fuel. The priming pump either isn't working well, is pumping up as it's supposed to, or is pulling a vacuum. Experiment by changing some lines around and you'll know in seconds. Another option is to use a temporary tank and filter if yours is messed up as much as it sounds.


"I am slowly eliminating the other possible issues. I blew down the fuel line between the tank and the lift pump and found a check valve somewhere in the middle, that doesn't show up in the manual."

That sounds suspicious to me, are you sure the dealer didn't shut off a valve? "somewhere in the middle"? is that a check valve, a clog, or a valve that's closed?

 

[Delmer]

The engine reving before it dies is the STANDARD symptom of running out of fuel. In this case it's nothing to worry about.

The check valve is unusual, and still suspicious. I've never seen a check valve installed like that, original or otherwise. I'm not an expert, just a shade tree mechanic, so I could be wrong??? Another possibility is a collapsed rubber hose if there are any. That could easily form an effective "check valve". If you hook a temporary hose into the inlet to the transfer pump and then experiment with loosening the outlet or blocking it with a finger, you'll see how the transfer pump feels when it's pumping, vs pumped up, vs pumping air, vs sucking against a vacuum. I suspect there's a blockage before the transfer pump, it's sucking against that blockage (which would give you a blister pumping that hard that long) and it's taking so long because there's only a slight leak past that blockage. There's a BIG difference between blowing compressed air and sucking fuel through a line.

The pump may be building pressure, but not have enough volume to keep up with the engine consumption and return flow, so the pressure at the injection pump drops. Loosen the supply line at the injection pump and see if you get good flow from the transfer pump, or start at the transfer pump and make sure it squirts good at every joint working towards the injection pump. It's not always enough to blow out a line with air, sometimes you have to take apart each section to find the fitting that's clogged.

Edit again: another relatively quick, easy and clean way to test this transfer pump blockage out is to notice the feel of the first pump, vs the next few. Then wait 10 seconds and see if the feel goes back to original. As lantraxco said, the lever compresses the spring and the spring pumps the fuel until fuel pressure equals the spring pressure and the spring doesn't extend to be compressed back by the lever or cam. So you're not "pumping" fuel forward when you use the lever, BUT you are pulling that diaphragm back, sucking fuel into the pump, and that is what makes it hard to pump.

 

[hetkind]

I like your advice...

Let me complete the cleaning of the fuel system from the tank to the transfer pump, and the return line and reevaluate the situation.


Howard

The engine reving before it dies is the STANDARD symptom of running out of fuel. In this case it's nothing to worry about.

The check valve is unusual, and still suspicious. I've never seen a check valve installed like that, original or otherwise. I'm not an expert, just a shade tree mechanic, so I could be wrong??? Another possibility is a collapsed rubber hose if there are any. That could easily form an effective "check valve". If you hook a temporary hose into the inlet to the transfer pump and then experiment with loosening the outlet or blocking it with a finger, you'll see how the transfer pump feels when it's pumping, vs pumped up, vs pumping air, vs sucking against a vacuum. I suspect there's a blockage before the transfer pump, it's sucking against that blockage (which would give you a blister pumping that hard that long) and it's taking so long because there's only a slight leak past that blockage. There's a BIG difference between blowing compressed air and sucking fuel through a line.

The pump may be building pressure, but not have enough volume to keep up with the engine consumption and return flow, so the pressure at the injection pump drops. Loosen the supply line at the injection pump and see if you get good flow from the transfer pump, or start at the transfer pump and make sure it squirts good at every joint working towards the injection pump. It's not always enough to blow out a line with air, sometimes you have to take apart each section to find the fitting that's clogged.

Edit again: another relatively quick, easy and clean way to test this transfer pump blockage out is to notice the feel of the first pump, vs the next few. Then wait 10 seconds and see if the feel goes back to original. As lantraxco said, the lever compresses the spring and the spring pumps the fuel until fuel pressure equals the spring pressure and the spring doesn't extend to be compressed back by the lever or cam. So you're not "pumping" fuel forward when you use the lever, BUT you are pulling that diaphragm back, sucking fuel into the pump, and that is what makes it hard to pump.

 

[Delmer]

A common way to clean a tank like that is to drain the fuel, let it settle and siphon off the clear stuff from the top, then pour it right back through the tank. Put all the clear stuff in the tank and slosh it around good, drain and repeat until you get most of it out.

I'll bet it ran fine for the shop because it had been sitting, it got sloshed around on the truck and died right away with all the gunk mixed up?

 

[hetkind]

I think you got the chain of events right about perfect.

The buckets of waste, contaminate fuel are going to the county waste oil collection tank. They send it to a re-refiner and it will end up as good fuel again and the county will benefit.

To clean the tank, I will pressure wash until it looks clean on the inside, then use cascade as a final cleaner, prior to a good rinse. There are literally pounds of debris in the tank and I would like it clean. I have less concerns about flash rust.

Howard

A common way to clean a tank like that is to drain the fuel, let it settle and siphon off the clear stuff from the top, then pour it right back through the tank. Put all the clear stuff in the tank and slosh it around good, drain and repeat until you get most of it out.

I'll bet it ran fine for the shop because it had been sitting, it got sloshed around on the truck and died right away with all the gunk mixed up?

 

[Don k]

The reason I said that there may be a problem with the injection pump was because of the messed up filter. If nothing got by it it may be OK. Mine has no check valves in either the tank or line. Did have a small strainer where the line comes out of the tank. I removed it and put in an automotive fuel filter which has much more area.

 

[hetkind]

I don't know if anything got by the filters, but the tank was bad on the inside...getting flushed with cascade and a garden hose as I write this.

I am hoping for success.

Howard

The reason I said that there may be a problem with the injection pump was because of the messed up filter. If nothing got by it it may be OK. Mine has no check valves in either the tank or line. Did have a small strainer where the line comes out of the tank. I removed it and put in an automotive fuel filter which has much more area.

 

[hetkind]

Firm clog point identified...fuel tank strainer.

This morning, as soon as the snow melted and hose thawed out, I filled the tank, with the supply and return lines removed, of course, with water and cascade. All the fuel, including the heel, was pumped yesterday and some very preliminary pressure washing started, before the weather turned.

The return fitting is flowing like a gusher, the feed fitting, with petcock and elbows removed is a very slow drip. I am going to let the water and cascade soak, probably for a day or so, then pull the strainer and continue to pressure wash. While it was showing some flow with fuel, enough to fool me, it is showing virtually NO flow with the soapy water. Nice to see clumps of black debris floating to the surface to be skimmed.

I believe this would explain the observed behavior. I am STILL going to blow down the return line before buttoning back up.

Thanks to all who provided input, I will keep you informed and I progress through this little issue.

Howard

 

[Delmer]

Well the strainer is definitely supposed to be the first thing to clog in a mess like this, sounds like you found the isssue. No use worrying about collapsed hoses, injection pumps and check valves, at this point anyway.

 

[hetkind]

Cascade and pressure washing to the tank clean...now it is drying with a normal, inexpensive, household blowdryer to remove the residual moisture. Once it is bone dry, I will see if that was the actual problem! I have a good feeling since the strainer would not pass water. Now for a inexpensive, transparent and easily changed automotive cartridge style filter as a "prefilter" prior to the lift pump. Luckily I stock those by the case for some of the vintage Dodge pickups we use as farm trucks. While the 450B has been down below the house, I have been using the 68 Dodge D100 Utiline, holley, headers, glasspacks, 318/727 3.90 Suregrip as my runaround truck.

Howard