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Daisy Chain or series connection of open center hydraulic valves

John C.

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You will need to define just what you are wanting to do with your machine as you stated some very different uses for the extra valve. In one sentence you talk about a grapple and then you talk about operating a motor. These are very different purposes with very different valve operating characteristics. Once you nail down what you want to do you can take that to a supplier who can then recommend which of their products will fit your needs without causing operational and internal problems.
 

Steve Bowman

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True. But those are common applications that are frequently handled on skid steers and tractors. I don't really see my desires as unique.

I admit that currently I dont know the flow requirements of a typical rental breaker. But a smallish hyd motor should certainly be possible.
 

TVA

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In this case just plumb in PB, return and case drain. Install gate valves. If you’ll be using implements with piston motors case drain is a must, gerotors and vane - highly recommended!
On many applications you need to have “motor spool” or tandem center to not to ruin the motor or something else.the best scenario is to buy four sections valve with PB option. You can use additional sections as remotes and PB with motors with external controls.
 

John C.

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Driving a motor usually requires a motor spool in the valve. Driving a cylinder requires it to hold position when the valve is in neutral. A breaker usually requires and drain directly to tank. The answers to these questions will be provided by a supplier. You can get some general knowledge here maybe as a check against what you are told by a supplier but since we don't have any idea of what you are working with or your future intensions, most of the information will likely just confuse you and all of us.
 

Steve Bowman

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Yea, You might be right about the confusion thing but...

Perhaps the simplest example of something similar... On most compact excavator 3rd valves. There are only 2 lines. No quick return. The same valve would operate most commonly a thumb, breaker or an auger. Those are 3 fairly different functions to accomplish with the same valve. Only difference is most of them are electric over hydraulic these days.


Most "regular flow" skid steers do have the 3rd line for quick drain back. Other than that, they are very similar.

As far as oil requirements go... pavement planers and trenchers require the most flow, the breakers and augers need 20 gpm or less. Thumbs and grapples, hardly any oil at all in relation.
 

John C.

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Excavators with an auxiliary valve need a three way valve installed to run a breaker or an auger to shift the return flow to the reservoir or the cooler circuit. Regular flow skid steers have a case drain line to prevent oil pressure from blowing out a shaft seal.
You need to do some home work and a supplier can fill you in plus provide free catalogs that contain more information than you are likely to use.
 

Steve Bowman

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Nearly all valves return to the tank on the line not getting the pressure. Not sure why a 3 way valve would be required there.


I might have hit a mini jackpot.

At my local rental place and talking to my buddies about my loader and attachments. They remembered a valve they removed from a machine when it was fairly new. They think it was a Gehl 4640 skid steer which is a 19 gpm machine. So much closer to my loader than the fork lift valve i am using now.

Bonus is they gave me a hard copy parts manual with it. And access to online service manual. There's a strong chance i can make it work. However it will be without float. But I can't beat the price. :). No $. I just fix golf carts for them when they can't figure them out, or get backed up.


The valve is definitely more complex. One function has seperate relief for each direction, while the center section has only one relief. 3rd section has none, other than the main relief.

20190215_171634.jpg

So the piggy back option might be on hold.
 
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Welder Dave

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Why do your inquiries always seem to make things 1000 times more complicated than they need to be. You seem to be ashamed of your loader as it's a big mystery what brand it is and then when people try to help you, you go way off in a different direction asking a bunch of irrelevant questions. Knowing the make and model someone might be able to tell you what valve it uses and the pressure and flow. I'm no hydraulics expert but I think you're trying turn your loader into the same type of set up like a standard flow skid steer. Had you mentioned from the outset that the original valve was missing and you wanted an aux. valve would have saved a whole lot time. Just get a 3 spool open center valve with float on one section and maybe detent on the aux. spool. I'd guess your running 2200-2500 PSI max. I'd be surprised if the valve from the skid steer doesn't have float for the boom circuit. 90% of skid steer have float. If it doesn't it can probably be added if it's commercially available valve. Standard flow skid steer aux. valves don't have a case drain line. High flow usually do though. Trying to compare to an excavator just confuses the issue more.
 

Steve Bowman

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No shame here - Waldon 7000. Heck, I am saving this heap from the scrap pile and making it serviceable and useful. The only thing OEM left on the hydraulics is the pump and cooler. The OEM joystic controlled valve was replaced long ago with a 3 section generic monoblock valve that had already outlived it's lifespan when I got the loader. That's why it wasn't mentioned. Simple as that. The fork lift valve in it now is not working out. So I wanted to keep the discussion as generic as possible. I did mention in my 2nd post the 25 gpm as a ballpark for the discussion of the system.

And you are correct about my desire to get it close to a skid steer in operation. Most skid steers have a similarly rated pump. Why would that be a bad thing for maximizing the utility of this loader?

My situation is somewhat like this example. Say I have 67 nova that needs an engine. OEM was a little inline 6, but I am exploring other/higher horsepower V8 options. But you seem to be brow beating me for not going back to the OEM V6. I am just trying to explore options with others that have relevant experience. Also, doing things "off the book" can help hone troubleshooting skills. Lots of people can troubleshoot using a book line by line. But throw away the book and let's have some fun.

If I wanted to dump lots of $$$ into it, it would also be more simple perhaps to return it to OEM. But that would be $2k or more to replace what has already been changed. I am attempting to use the resources at hand, and/or the cheapest ones that would accomplish my needs. Sure, I know I could get a 3 section valve like you describe, but I have more time than $$$ presently. Looking at my options when I created this thread, it looked like I could get a 2 section and 1 section monoblock valves for around 1/2 of what a complete 3 section that fit my description. That is why I wanted to explore the possibility of the two seperate valves. Purely to potentially save $$

I only mention an excavator as an illustration of the universality of my desire for a 3rd valve section, after it was implied that I was trying to do something strange and way out in left field. Furthermore, some of the responses provided didn't make sense with existing equipment I am familiar with or have access to. If we limit our excavator discussion to compact models, I don't think the valves are not all that different from a skid steer. That is the reason for my further questions. I suppose the line between back and forth discussion and being argumentative is a fine one. I don't mean to be the latter.

You are probably correct about the float. But after looking through the parts and service manuals, I think on this model, the float is accomplished with a separate solenoid valve that also keeps the bucket level when lifting, I think. Not part of the valve I have.
 
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Welder Dave

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https://waldonequipment.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/7000.pdf

That's why make and model matters. I found this in 3 seconds. Give as much information as possible the first time and you'll have a lot better success. Don't waste people's time giving generic info and other stuff that is not relevant in the least. Otherwise when you really need help people will ignore you because they don't want to go through 4 pages of back and forth to finally get the info they need to help you. If that valve isn't rated for 25 GPM it's going to cause problems that could cost you a lot more in the long run.
 
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Steve Bowman

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Yea, that's my loader.

I have had that exact pdf printed out since the week that i got the loader home.

Now that I look at it again, it does mention "power beyond" as an option to the original hydraulics. But i am not sure what answers it provides to my questions. But maybe i am overlooking something...


Look at all the attachments it shows possible. See, I am not crazy.
 
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Welder Dave

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Crazy isn't the word. You had that PDF since day 1 and deliberately neglected to make any mention of it??? What your overlooking is people trying to help you don't like their valuable time wasted unnecessarily.
 

Steve Bowman

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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. ...






Nothing deliberate about it. It's a sales brochure, not a technical document. I already said oem is out. Why can't YOU understand that? I am attempting to discuss series connection of "generic", open center mono block valves.
 
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TVA

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Welder Dave, I think you need to go easier on this guy.
He started this thread not talking about specific machine and specific problem.
Guy is a tinkerer, and wants to learn something to see if he can improve his machine
I understood this right away. If someone doesn’t want to waste time he can just go to other threads.
 

TVA

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Steve, you also have a solenoid without coil on the left coil on The left section.
 

Steve Bowman

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Yeah, that missing coil could be the main problem with this valve. The reason is valve was removed originally was due to that faulty coil. A replacent was ordered under warranty but they were shipped the complete valve rather than just the coil. They asked about returning the whole valve but we're told just to keep it. It has been sitting on their shelf for a few years.

That solenoid is on the auxiliary circuit and serves to lock out that function when the handlebar is up. I think I should be able to find a coil to put on the stem. Definitely not planning on spending the $600 it would take to replace just that solenoid.

Surprisingly the parts manual does not break down the valve assembly very much.
 

TVA

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Try just putting a plug in it, select ORB plug same size as the solenoid valve.

But it all depends on what kind of solenoid is NC or NO
 

Steve Bowman

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The manual says that the spool lock activates when the operator raises the restraint bar or leaves his seat, locking the auxiliary hydraulics.

Based on that description it may not need power for normal operation.

We shall see.

Back to the original question. I wonder if multiple mono block valves in series would work if the 1st one does not have the power beyond spool option. Say 2 log splitter valves
 

Welder Dave

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Welder Dave, I think you need to go easier on this guy.
He started this thread not talking about specific machine and specific problem.
Guy is a tinkerer, and wants to learn something to see if he can improve his machine
I understood this right away. If someone doesn’t want to waste time he can just go to other threads.

I am actually try to help Steve. He's like the boy who cried wolf too many times and then when he really needs help (and he will) nobody responds because he doesn't listen. He does have a specific machine with a specific problem. This isn't the first topic he's started where he's been really vague, withholds information, questions all the responses, changes the subject and just wastes everyone's time. You notice everyone else is long gone. Here's a response on his" What engine is this thread".

5 PAGES of d!ckin around when it all could have been sorted out on pg.2 post #27..
Like I don't have anything better to do.?? Lol..
 
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