D6c cat loss of oil pressure

[51kw]

They are just guessing now. Pretty bad when a company the size of Ziegler is guessing.

 

[Steve.ahlgren85]

If the engine is overfueling, wouldn't there be fuel in the oil?Can the

 

[Steve.ahlgren85]

What I meant to say was, wouldn't an oil analysis test show presence of fuel in the oil?

 

[kshansen]

How can you "rebuild" an engine & NOT get the inj. pump & injectors tested??
Arent they supposed to AT LEAST get it checked?? The injection system is the most important piece on the engine.!!! WOW..
Even when your getting your tonsils out they check your heart.. [simplest procedure]
The inj. system IS the heart of the motor..
Just something to think about..

Many years back I was surprised to find out the local Cat dealer did not have a test stand to test run an injection pump on after they "rebuilt" one!

We had sent a pump, off a 3306, to them to have it rebuilt while we did the rebuild on the engine. After assembling an engine we always would start and run on the shop floor while hooked to a water barrel to be sure there were no obvious leaks or strange noises.

Forget exactly what we noticed wrong with this particular engine but something was obviously not right. After checking some basic things like valve adjustments we proceeded to swapping fuel nozzles, or as Cat calls the prechamber ones injection valves. Problem stayed in the one cylinder.

I came up with the idea that there was a problem in the fuel delivery so lacking a test stand came up with the idea of using the engine as the test stand. Dug out a good used pair of American Bosh injectors out of a Mack END711 engine and a pair of fuel lines from the Mack. Installed one set on the cylinder in question and one set on a "good" cylinder.

Cranked up the 3306 and let it run on four cylinders while holding a coffee can under each of the test injectors. Yes I was careful to not get fingers near the fuel spray! Did this a couple time to confirm what we were seeing. One cylinder was very obviously getting way more fuel than the other, did not need a graduated test tube to see the difference!

Took pump off engine and personally took it to the dealer and explained what we had done and found. At first they seemed to question our methodology and said they had installed new plungers, at the rebuild, so there should be no problem. Well they finally did pull the plungers out of the pump and just by looking at the size and shape of the scroll on the bad cylinder one could see the difference!

Next thing was almost better. When they checked availability on a replacement plunger it showed as being in-stock but they could not locate it in parts department. That is until someone recalled they had just had an injection pump class a couple days before. Seems the plunger that was "in-stock" was the one they had used in the class and was sitting on desk in classroom. So now our pump was reassembled with this plunger that had been handled by a couple dozen sweaty hands in the class.

Guess the factory had left a good coat of test fluid on it as it worked just fine when pump was reinstalled on engine back at the shop. No idea of the long term operation of the engine but usually our plants would destroy something before a slightly worn plunger would cause a problem!

 

[Steve.ahlgren85]

Many years back I was surprised to find out the local Cat dealer did not have a test stand to test run an injection pump on after they "rebuilt" one!

We had sent a pump, off a 3306, to them to have it rebuilt while we did the rebuild on the engine. After assembling an engine we always would start and run on the shop floor while hooked to a water barrel to be sure there were no obvious leaks or strange noises.

Forget exactly what we noticed wrong with this particular engine but something was obviously not right. After checking some basic things like valve adjustments we proceeded to swapping fuel nozzles, or as Cat calls the prechamber ones injection valves. Problem stayed in the one cylinder.

I came up with the idea that there was a problem in the fuel delivery so lacking a test stand came up with the idea of using the engine as the test stand. Dug out a good used pair of American Bosh injectors out of a Mack END711 engine and a pair of fuel lines from the Mack. Installed one set on the cylinder in question and one set on a "good" cylinder.

Cranked up the 3306 and let it run on four cylinders while holding a coffee can under each of the test injectors. Yes I was careful to not get fingers near the fuel spray! Did this a couple time to confirm what we were seeing. One cylinder was very obviously getting way more fuel than the other, did not need a graduated test tube to see the difference!

Took pump off engine and personally took it to the dealer and explained what we had done and found. At first they seemed to question our methodology and said they had installed new plungers, at the rebuild, so there should be no problem. Well they finally did pull the plungers out of the pump and just by looking at the size and shape of the scroll on the bad cylinder one could see the difference!

Next thing was almost better. When they checked availability on a replacement plunger it showed as being in-stock but they could not locate it in parts department. That is until someone recalled they had just had an injection pump class a couple days before. Seems the plunger that was "in-stock" was the one they had used in the class and was sitting on desk in classroom. So now our pump was reassembled with this plunger that had been handled by a couple dozen sweaty hands in the class.

Guess the factory had left a good coat of test fluid on it as it worked just fine when pump was reinstalled on engine back at the shop. No idea of the long term operation of the engine but usually our plants would destroy something before a slightly worn plunger would cause a problem!

 

[d9gdon]

Did they check the piston cooling jets to see if they are spraying? That would lock the pistons down too...and it would smoke before locking up.

 

[d9gdon]

What I meant to say was, wouldn't an oil analysis test show presence of fuel in the oil?

How about sniffing the dipstick?

 

[Steve.ahlgren85]

Here are a couple pictures of the pistons. Service manager pointed out where pistons were starting to melt.Cylinders are all scored again. They took the fuel pump off to get it checked out, the timing was right on. He pointed out the shiny tops of pistons, said that was not normal, possibly from too much fuel being sprayed into each cylinder. Will have to wait until next week for results of fuel pump specs.

 

[Steve.ahlgren85]

Did they check the piston cooling jets to see if they are spraying? That would lock the pistons down too...and it would smoke before locking up.

Don't know anything about that!Chris, service manager @ziegler is pretty confident that they will find out the cause of the engine failure, through trial and error, if needs be. Just have to have faith that they will pinpoint it.

 

[oldirt]

this sounds like we are going to have to learn to do this ourselves. what a waste.

 

[Junkyard]

Ummmmm if Cat has to do a 3306 O/H by trial and error we have a serious issue. Something, hell a lot of things, aren't adding up for me on this deal. I can't imagine navigating this ordeal. They have a ridiculous amount of resources for assuring correct parts interchange, specs for reuse etc. Either they're terribly trained and inept, lying through their teeth or just unlucky. Or the machine has a curse on it....

 

[Cmark]

So here's a couple of observations/questions?

• You started off with a counterbore block and now have a spacer plate block.
• The locating dowel at the end of the block is either broken off or cut off. Why?
• Do you have the right head? Early counterbore heads aren't directly compatible with spacer plate blocks, but all that said, it should only affect the oil feed to the rocker shaft.
• The plastic ferrules in the coolant seals have started to collapse. That's a sure sign that things have started to get hot.
• Has anyone looked at the water pump impeller?

 

[d9gdon]

Somebody didn't put gasoline into the diesel tank by mistake did they?

 

[GregsHD]

Somebody didn't put gasoline into the diesel tank by mistake did they?

I was thinking the same thing..

 

[thepumpguysc]

Yes your correct Hansen. Cat doesn't give a "fuel delivery" spec.. only rack measurements.
BUT like you said, how can you verify you have things put together correctly if you don't put it on a machine to check equal delivery..
I CANT COUNT the # of times its happened in the shop I worked in..
Rebuild a 33-3406 put it on the stand & 2 cylinders don't pump OR pump triple what its supposed to.
I've seen a mechanic change a plunger-barrel out, on the engine.. Fired it up & it took off, out of control..
Its VERY EASY to get the plungers a tooth off on those engines..
The latest screw-up I saw was a fella rebuilt one & used the wrong timing pin to hold the rack stationary..
Everything went together smooth & equal delivery was smooth..
BUT the customer complained of extremely low power..
Come to find out, the mechanic didnt use the rack measurement gauge.. just ran it to verify equal delivery & took it off the test stand..
HAD HE USED THE GAUGE he would have found out he had used the wrong timing pin & the control rack wasn't even in the correct position.. Seeing Cat doesnt give fuel outputs, he just went by equal delivery..
I never understood Cats reasoning behind that..??

 

[Steve.ahlgren85]

So here's a couple of observations/questions?

• You started off with a counterbore block and now have a spacer plate block.
• The locating dowel at the end of the block is either broken off or cut off. Why?
• Do you have the right head? Early counterbore heads aren't directly compatible with spacer plate blocks, but all that said, it should only affect the oil feed to the rocker shaft.
• The plastic ferrules in the coolant seals have started to collapse. That's a sure sign that things have started to get hot.
  

  So here's a couple of observations/questions?
  

  • You started off with a counterbore block and now have a spacer plate block.
  • The locating dowel at the end of the block is either broken off or cut off. Why?
  • Do you have the right head? Early counterbore heads aren't directly compatible with spacer plate blocks, but all that said, it should only affect the oil feed to the rocker shaft.
  • The plastic ferrules in the coolant seals have started to collapse. That's a sure sign that things have started to get hot.
  • Has anyone looked at the water pump impeller?

  Cmark
• Has anyone looked at the water pump impeller?

[/QUTE]

So here's a couple of observations/questions?

• You started off with a counterbore block and now have a spacer plate block.
• The locating dowel at the end of the block is either broken off or cut off. Why?
• Do you have the right head? Early counterbore heads aren't directly compatible with spacer plate blocks, but all that said, it should only affect the oil feed to the rocker shaft.
• The plastic ferrules in the coolant seals have started to collapse. That's a sure sign that things have started to get hot.
• Has anyone looked at the water pump impeller?

Cmark
I asked service manager about the water pump maybe the problem but he didn't seem too keen on that but he said that they were going to check the radiator out, pressurized it.i did leave them the head off the original engine. He wanted me to leave it with them. It is interesting what you said about there being a difference between counter bore and spacer plate block engine. Could that be the problem with the engine failure?Anyway, they have the original head to compare. Thanks so much for your input, all of you guys.You all have so much experience and knowledge and have been a real help.

 

[Cmark]

The service manager may not be old enough to remember that the water pump impellers used to be plastic bonded onto a steel hub. The impeller would break away from the hub and stop spinning. The pump wouldn't leak as the hub would still mate with the carbon face seal.

I would have thought that the plastic impellers would have been worked out of the system by now, but there could still be some out there.

 

[Steve.ahlgren85]

The service manager may not be old enough to remember that the water pump impellers used to be plastic bonded onto a steel hub. The impeller would break away from the hub and stop spinning. The pump wouldn't leak as the hub would still mate with the carbon face seal.

I would have thought that the plastic impellers would have been worked out of the system by now, but there could still be some out there.

The water pump impeller was, if I remember correctly, steel. I don't remember it being plastic, I would remember that.

 

[kshansen]

So here's a couple of observations/questions?

• The locating dowel at the end of the block is either broken off or cut off. Why?
• The plastic ferrules in the coolant seals have started to collapse. That's a sure sign that things have started to get hot.
• Has anyone looked at the water pump impeller?

If you're not sure what Cmark is referring to check the picture below. Locating dowel is circled in Green and Plastic ferrule that is starting to collapse is circled in Red.


I might not be too worried about the ferrule looking like that on an engine with 15,000 hours on it but one with only a handful of hours sure is not right!

 

[Steve.ahlgren85]

Yes I see that.I don't know what happened to the dowel pin, but the plastic fertile is out of shape. Service manager didn't mention that. He did point out how each pistons head was showing deterioration, melting, in the corners, indicating extreme heat.Like I mentioned to the service manager, the engine heat gauge started to move up to the middle of the gauge range on a20 decree day right from the get go, engine was laboring, like running the machine with brakes applied, smoking, not heavy, but smoking black smoke, engine finally died,started back up again, drove it across the field about a mile, did some pushing dirt, engine quit again.I am wondering if the heat gauge is off somewhat and the engine is overheating. The radiator wasn't steaming though. After it cooled down, I checked radiator water level, it was 75% that is when I called Ziegler, that is where we are today .