surfer-joe
Senior Member
Company stockholders always trump workers!
-
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CAT getting nasty with workers in Canada
- Thread starter cutting edge
- Start date
Here in Iowa we've got of course John Deere, manufacturing in waterloo, and also dubuque making tractors, farm equipment and their forestry lineups, deere took its bloodbath in the 80's and learned to go global and use diversification to survive, just like cat, terex in Waverly putting out telehandlers and cranes, among other things for their lineup, they took over the old shields plant, then shields bantam, then koehring and now terex, times change, we've also got a start up company making trailers, XL trailer making lowboys in manchester iowa. Our state too gave incentives for the companies to not only stay, but prosper here, without that we'd be just farms and plenty of grain shipped overseas to export markets, also plenty of ethanol plants and biodiesel plants to dot the landscape and now more windmills generating electricity than I ever dreamed possible. We've got plastic plants, bolt plants, wiring harness plants, electrical plants turning out high tech electronics to the airline industry and auto industry and dozens of smaller plants turning out products I never knew existed till family members got hired there to work.
We've lost plenty of meat packers over the decades and are down to a handful turning out meat products worldwide, a silica sand mine shipping globally as well and I'm still thinking whats around me I just don't see on a daily basis. Koehring sold out the patents to a company and they are across the boarder in minnesota making trenchers now again with the upswing in demand, oh yea cedar rapids rock products, still making things worldwide in rock crushing and processing. Vermeer manufacturing turning out farm and construction equipment, another Iowa based company with start up roots right here and dealing globally. Quaker oats is based here yet I think, maybe its corporate office has moved but I don't think so. When one puts his thought to this we've got a lot really, probably even more I've forgotten over time. I'm not sure about wages and benefits, but the last I knew what cat was offering is about right that 16-22 per hour depending on what it is and how high tech it is. Its down a lot over the years, since most of the packing plants went bust, and john deere backed down when they almost went bust in the 80's as well, Cats across the river in Illinois as well but I can't comment much on them, its not really in my state or close by, they too have backed off wages I'm thinking over the last 3 decades, from what to what I don't know I'd have to ask again what john deere did pay back in the day, I've got plenty of friends who had parents work there along with relatives. The wages were not as much as the benefits back then that I do know, as for the packing industry back in the day they were at that 15-30 per hour plus benefits but when the bust came and all the big rollers went bust, now its more like minimum wage without many benefits and they are having a hard time to survive as well, its just the nature of the industry I guess.
I'm thinking we're pretty moderate for living costs as well, but it depends on where your at in the state as well, we are at about 6-7% sales tax and do have state taxes for everyone. Not sure what average housing costs now, with the downturn in the housing I'm not sure the average is correct, just kept up by banks and real-estate agents in hopes things will turn around again, land on the other hand, is at all time highs, setting records almost monthly, just crazy with grain pieces into the stratosphere compared to normal prices of even 5 years ago, again all globally driven in demand.
We've lost plenty of meat packers over the decades and are down to a handful turning out meat products worldwide, a silica sand mine shipping globally as well and I'm still thinking whats around me I just don't see on a daily basis. Koehring sold out the patents to a company and they are across the boarder in minnesota making trenchers now again with the upswing in demand, oh yea cedar rapids rock products, still making things worldwide in rock crushing and processing. Vermeer manufacturing turning out farm and construction equipment, another Iowa based company with start up roots right here and dealing globally. Quaker oats is based here yet I think, maybe its corporate office has moved but I don't think so. When one puts his thought to this we've got a lot really, probably even more I've forgotten over time. I'm not sure about wages and benefits, but the last I knew what cat was offering is about right that 16-22 per hour depending on what it is and how high tech it is. Its down a lot over the years, since most of the packing plants went bust, and john deere backed down when they almost went bust in the 80's as well, Cats across the river in Illinois as well but I can't comment much on them, its not really in my state or close by, they too have backed off wages I'm thinking over the last 3 decades, from what to what I don't know I'd have to ask again what john deere did pay back in the day, I've got plenty of friends who had parents work there along with relatives. The wages were not as much as the benefits back then that I do know, as for the packing industry back in the day they were at that 15-30 per hour plus benefits but when the bust came and all the big rollers went bust, now its more like minimum wage without many benefits and they are having a hard time to survive as well, its just the nature of the industry I guess.
I'm thinking we're pretty moderate for living costs as well, but it depends on where your at in the state as well, we are at about 6-7% sales tax and do have state taxes for everyone. Not sure what average housing costs now, with the downturn in the housing I'm not sure the average is correct, just kept up by banks and real-estate agents in hopes things will turn around again, land on the other hand, is at all time highs, setting records almost monthly, just crazy with grain pieces into the stratosphere compared to normal prices of even 5 years ago, again all globally driven in demand.
Hendrik
Senior Member
I used Nike because in the past there have been reports that their factories where sweatshops, to be fair Nike HQ was probably not fully aware of conditions until it was highlighted in the media and appears to be trying to do the right thing. Although I think I am being fairly generous with that statement.
http://talk.onevietnam.org/nike-factory-in-vietnam-source-of-jobs-or-evil-sweat-shop/
Of interest in the article is the claim that Nike are paying $54 per month, which apparently is more than the base wage. Sure the cost of living is nowhere what it is here (Oztralia) but it is still not a lot.
I've been to Vietnam and yes things are cheap but it is a developing country and costs will go up. Of particular interest is the cost of housing, will a Nike factory worker be able to fulfil the dream of owning a home on $54 a month? Or are they not entitled to own their own homes?
This article goes a bit more in depth http://www.globalexchange.org/sweatfree/nike/faq but has an agenda behind it, so may not be that unbiased. However it does explain a bit about cost of living in SE Asia.
The thing is, did Nike decide to shift manufacturing to SE Asia in order to help develop those nations or did they go there because they could pay workers the absolute minimum they could get away with, in order to maximise profits? Like what Cat wants to do at it's London plant.
My point of view is that paying a worker a wage that barley covers the cost of living is not helping that country/community move forward and is what may be called 'wage slavery'.
To further give some relativity, a kilo of rice in Vietnam costs about 34 cents http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-19/vietnam-may-free-rice-stockpiles-to-cool-prices.html and a Nike worker earns ($54 month divided by 200 hours worked at least) 27 cents an hour, which means he/she has to work for an hour and a bit to earn a kilo of rice. I haven't bought rice here for a while (I like the basmati stuff) but the Oz minimum wage is $15.51/hr and I am pretty sure an Oz worker does not have to work for an hour and a bit to afford a kilo of rice.
Anyway I hope this lends come credence to my previous post, I can't really understand your cynicism as a quick web search will come up loads of articles about working conditions in 'cheap labour countries'. You are entitled to think that all is sweet and these big corporations are good citizens of the world and have a heart. Or perhaps you can go with the old 'life is like that" and they should be grateful that they have a job but would you work for less than the cost of living, knowing your employer is making big money?
Hendrik
Senior Member
OK we will have remember your words of wisdom when there are no jobs any more, when the local McDonalds is staffed by guest workers because using your rationale, why should there be any barriers in the way a company chooses to do it's business. Trade unions are essentially a form of socialism, they will have to go as they may restrict the way a company chooses to treat it's workers, after all they should be grateful that the company chooses to let them work in their factory.
Also would you still think this way if you where working in a profitable factory that is about to be shut and relocated to China, for no other reason than to make a bit more profit for the company. They may well feed the workers some spin about global competition and such, which they will have to stand there and swallow, then they can go home and explain to their families that due to global competition their future is stuffed.
Vise Grips are good example http://madeintheusabyamericans.blogspot.com/2008/09/newell-rubbermaid-moves-vice-grip-to.html sure it can be argued that if they did not cut costs to compete with cheap Chinese knocks offs they may well go under altogether but now vise grips have lost a big advantage over the knock offs, what will the future hold for them?
I have also heard a lot of you say, suck it up and get another job but what if there is no other job? Well I suppose that's competition and the workers in the developed nations are the losers.
It is sometimes easy to take the view that competition is good, if you are ahead of the pack in terms of marketable skills.
Anyway when you figure out how to make it a level playing field, let me know.
BTW I am not a true socialist but have the view that the world is run by accountants, who are tasked with maximising profits for the rich. I really can't see that the course we are sailing on is going to anything but end in disaster. Remember socialism thrives when people see no future. That's how Hitler got to be in power, that is how the Communists got into power.
I do think that if we view the world in a simplistic black and red (profit and loss) way we will loose our humanity and become slaves to the almighty dollar.
We can just look at the small picture and say that competition is good but what are the larger consequences and who is responsible for them? Our leaders who tend to agree with you about global competition for jobs? The company directors who put profit before social responsibility? Or perhaps it is the average person who witnessed the death of manufacturing and helped it along by buying the cheaper product made by wage slaves?
The concept of 'fair' used to run pretty deep within the psyche of Australia, our national anthem is Advance Australia Fair, this is being eroded by global competition. We used to believe that workers had the right to a 'fair' wage. Obviously paying someone 27 cents an hour in a sweatshop is now fair too.
John C.
Senior Member
The point that everyone is missing is that employees only make the amount of money that they can leverage from an employer. No employer offers any more money than they have to pay. The employer is the entity that starts the pot of money on pure risk. There are no guarantees of them succeeding. There are guarantees of them failing if they don't perform. When you go to work for an employer you are giving up a certain element of risk for a paycheck and certain negotiated benefits. You have put your risk in the employers hands.
The other part of this seems to be that this company is a subsidiary of Caterpillar. No one has stated whether or not the same management team is still in place. Perhaps Cat told the management team they have a new bottom line and left it up to them to figure it out. Unfortunately that means the employees also fail. Remember, they gave up that part of the risk for a steady paycheck.
Here is a different take. The plant in Canada is in a different country than Caterpillar. Caterpillar has decided to bring that capability back to the United States. It sounds to me like they are now going to employ US citizens and bring those wages and benefits back to the home base.
While I think it is probably a little underhanded to shut the plant down the way they are doing it, I also think it is a little underhanded for government to come in and tell Cat how they have to do business in Canada. I truly feel for those folks there. It is a lousy feeling to not have a steady job for the foreseeable. However if those jobs are between US citizens and those in Canada, then I'm sorry, Canada looses.
The other part of this seems to be that this company is a subsidiary of Caterpillar. No one has stated whether or not the same management team is still in place. Perhaps Cat told the management team they have a new bottom line and left it up to them to figure it out. Unfortunately that means the employees also fail. Remember, they gave up that part of the risk for a steady paycheck.
Here is a different take. The plant in Canada is in a different country than Caterpillar. Caterpillar has decided to bring that capability back to the United States. It sounds to me like they are now going to employ US citizens and bring those wages and benefits back to the home base.
While I think it is probably a little underhanded to shut the plant down the way they are doing it, I also think it is a little underhanded for government to come in and tell Cat how they have to do business in Canada. I truly feel for those folks there. It is a lousy feeling to not have a steady job for the foreseeable. However if those jobs are between US citizens and those in Canada, then I'm sorry, Canada looses.
CM1995
Administrator
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Hendrik, how do you explain the rationale of the foreign companies that decided to build assembly and production plants in Alabama? These plants have been built over the last 15 years, during the age of globalization.
Hendrik
Senior Member
Because it is a sweet home?
By the sounds of it the great state of Alabama made em a good offer.
I can't really explain in detail why a company decides to build a factory here or there.
However the product has to be made somewhere and various factors go into that decision.
Including things like shipping, availability of skilled workers to perform more complex tasks, as a marketing tool (ie Made in America) which is particularly the case for the car makers, availability of parts that go into the product and the list goes on. Of course there is also the cost per worker, which appears to be cheaper in Alabama than in other parts of the States. To me it looks like the factories need to turn out a quality Made in America product, as Hyundai, Navstar et al are in a very competitive business.
I am going to take a guess that wages in Japan and South Korea are getting pretty high and another factor in spreading your factories all over the world, is if you have a big natural disaster in the part of the world where your factories are.......
However what sort of level of automation is within these new factories? Do machines do 90% of the work? It is hard for a machine to be able to sew together a shoe but they can mostly build a car.
This is perhaps a dilemma that faces a lot of older factories, either spend money on automation or use cheap labour in another part of the world? This is what made the vise-grip move interesting. I am pretty sure that a great deal of the manufacturing process could have been automated, which may have meant a reduction of workers but they could still put the Made in America sticker on it. Spose now they have Designed in America in big letters and assembled in China in fine print.
John, I truly feel sorry for you if really believe that. I can think of many employers who pay their employees more than they have to. Employers who actually care about their employees.
Hendrik, thanks for the reply, but while on that subject I can one up you, if your wanitng examples of bad business, lets chat about a lot of the same things you just put out there, sex alligations, workers abuse, cheating overtime pay, now toss in bank fruad, money laundering, many hundred counts of child labor laws voilations, all which came about convictions and jail time, basically life sentences to the one's responsible, but here you might find it interesting, they were a lot more recent than your examples, like two years ago, then toss on filing bankruptcy and almost destroying a town and its inhabitants, destoying housing in that town, leaving a mass of debt to last decades for the locals to clean up and absorb, I could go on for hours, but the interesting part is all those involved were foreign people, the owners, the staff, management and oh yea the workers as well................. but it happened on US soil in todays time in Postville Iowa, my state with AgriProcessors, that too was in the papers and on the net, look it up. So maybe since we're discussing cat a global company, which by all omissions has not broke any laws, maybe those, yours and mine should go under a thread called corruption.
Next, again not to be harsh or one sided, I did do a lot of reading, you presented and from the net, over a dozen articles in fact all off the net, last night, again thanks for the info, the meidia never reported that in my area........................................ but it was so many decades ago I'd probably forgotten it by now anyhow, which leads to several questions, again just obserbations on my part, not to bash or priaise any involved for anything here. But all those articles dated back to sources in time between 1990-1997, the first one you tagged on was written in 2010 but used sorces dating back to that eara, same as all the rest I found on the net, no matter when they were written, next.............whats the outcome, in mine it was convictinons and jail time for the one's doing the deeds, in yours those are 15-22 years ago and no follow up other than some were charged? Next, the second article was dated in 2011 and had data from 2011 or 15-22 years newer and lastly you compared wages in your area and costs to those in vietnam?
To gain information about wages verses cost of living, the figures all need to be from the same time frame, same location, those are figures we can use to compare things and the question I originally had and still do, what about those that live "there" not "here" If I'd jump around and take figures from my area and convert and use assumptions for somewhere else, I bet I can not only protray anyone to look bad but also maybe even be convincing enough to pursuade others into believing anything I'd like. I don't and never have said abuse anywhere or breaking the law is fine and still don't, but at the same time I don't establish minimum wage anywhere nor cost of living anywhere, those are out of my hands completely, the articles on the net also went onto say minimum wage was paid but that was dated in or around 2000, but it was something like 37.50 at that time, I'm guessing a month? I don't know they never said, but I'm also not a world wide humanitarian either, the churches might be a better place for that. Now I can't do much for someone making in their country converted to their wage scale what their country deems a fair wage, I'm not god, even if I feel in my world its low or poverty, but the alternative to doing nothing is what, boycot the products and pull out all manufacturing? Again an observation, but without manufacturing wouldn't the average salery still be that price, but with no money pumped into the economy? Now before anyone goes and bashes my brains in for being insensative, there are two sides to every story, so bear with me somewhat, without manufacturing down there, the wage won't change ever, nor will the lifestyle and level of society, but also bear in mind crime and corruption go along with prosperiety, I'm not sure you or I can compare any country to our own, in todays age, but those societies are back in for us what would be 100-150 years ago in the evolution chain of manufacturing. Now that said what alternative did those people have? Anyone would choose the lessor of two evils, if they didn't have that job, what was option number two.........starvation, none of the articles said any other options.
For agriprocessors workers option number two was what happened, deportation for illegals and being sent back to where they tried to get away from, something worse than they had here, they didn't report the abuse or the crime, they didn't like option number two or want it, the state stepped in with an investigation and forced option number two and also the charges against the company, that was the whole arguement in the first place, the victims didn't praise the government for stopping it, they praised the employer for having the job, so whats right and legal to do, stop the crime being committed, was in the end, wrong for the victims, when asked them and they had a voice. I personally thought the government did the right thing and stopped it and ended the company and its dealings, the victims had a different version completely, I know I spoke to some of them and they hated the government for shutting down the plant, one even said, compared to where we are being sent, this plant if like a salvation to us, even with what they did, I"ll be dead in a week where I'm being sent back to............. that kind of hit me hard............... abuse, deplorable working conditions, cheating wokers out of wages, using humnan beings and discarding them like trash, lying to them, robbing them blind and in the end, the victims still thought of them as some hero and a savior, so no I"ll not always understand because I didn't know what or where they came from and quit judging people and their country by my standards I have. Just a thought I'd pass along.
Now that said, I'll agree the company should have stepped up and done something, but are you and I any better, how much of your earnings did you send down to aid those people, half or all of it? Every year since, how much? I'll admit I'm not a humanitarian, never claimed to be, but don't bash a company for making money and not giving back what you feel they should, unless your prepared to give all you have all the time, we or at least I live in a free interprise system and like it that way, if injustice has occured step up to the plate and take action, buy shoe companies and better the wages and working conditions and then disribute the excess earnings back to the people, don't decare its someone else's responsibiity, you'd not accept someone dicating how you spend your money or how much you should give away, would you? First you can't give away what you don't have and its not yours till you have it in your hand, I've never dictated or condembed anyone for not giving away something I wan't willing to do myself. Don't set standards based on you or I, because if we do that, it works the same for everyone and someone might then deem you have more than they and are entitled to what you have.
Again thanks for the reading, if you have more pass it along, I'm always interested in how comes and outcomes. Sorry for the long boring post and rambling on.
Crime and corruption is not new by any means and will always be here or there, hopefully things are better than they were in the past, sometimes I wonder if this is the case, but hope drives us all in one way or another, we coud discuss literally the crimes committed in your example were actually done by the hands of their own people, same for my example, or that the governments did nothing for a long time in either case, but in the end that means little, but I also don't hold the actions of the individuals in my case against those that took their place and are operating today or transfer that anger to other legitimate companies opering anyhwere and deem one needs to make up for anothers wrong doing, I guess I'm not like that at all, I draw from the past to help plan for the future and not repeat past mistakes..........hopefully.
Next, again not to be harsh or one sided, I did do a lot of reading, you presented and from the net, over a dozen articles in fact all off the net, last night, again thanks for the info, the meidia never reported that in my area........................................ but it was so many decades ago I'd probably forgotten it by now anyhow, which leads to several questions, again just obserbations on my part, not to bash or priaise any involved for anything here. But all those articles dated back to sources in time between 1990-1997, the first one you tagged on was written in 2010 but used sorces dating back to that eara, same as all the rest I found on the net, no matter when they were written, next.............whats the outcome, in mine it was convictinons and jail time for the one's doing the deeds, in yours those are 15-22 years ago and no follow up other than some were charged? Next, the second article was dated in 2011 and had data from 2011 or 15-22 years newer and lastly you compared wages in your area and costs to those in vietnam?
To gain information about wages verses cost of living, the figures all need to be from the same time frame, same location, those are figures we can use to compare things and the question I originally had and still do, what about those that live "there" not "here" If I'd jump around and take figures from my area and convert and use assumptions for somewhere else, I bet I can not only protray anyone to look bad but also maybe even be convincing enough to pursuade others into believing anything I'd like. I don't and never have said abuse anywhere or breaking the law is fine and still don't, but at the same time I don't establish minimum wage anywhere nor cost of living anywhere, those are out of my hands completely, the articles on the net also went onto say minimum wage was paid but that was dated in or around 2000, but it was something like 37.50 at that time, I'm guessing a month? I don't know they never said, but I'm also not a world wide humanitarian either, the churches might be a better place for that. Now I can't do much for someone making in their country converted to their wage scale what their country deems a fair wage, I'm not god, even if I feel in my world its low or poverty, but the alternative to doing nothing is what, boycot the products and pull out all manufacturing? Again an observation, but without manufacturing wouldn't the average salery still be that price, but with no money pumped into the economy? Now before anyone goes and bashes my brains in for being insensative, there are two sides to every story, so bear with me somewhat, without manufacturing down there, the wage won't change ever, nor will the lifestyle and level of society, but also bear in mind crime and corruption go along with prosperiety, I'm not sure you or I can compare any country to our own, in todays age, but those societies are back in for us what would be 100-150 years ago in the evolution chain of manufacturing. Now that said what alternative did those people have? Anyone would choose the lessor of two evils, if they didn't have that job, what was option number two.........starvation, none of the articles said any other options.
For agriprocessors workers option number two was what happened, deportation for illegals and being sent back to where they tried to get away from, something worse than they had here, they didn't report the abuse or the crime, they didn't like option number two or want it, the state stepped in with an investigation and forced option number two and also the charges against the company, that was the whole arguement in the first place, the victims didn't praise the government for stopping it, they praised the employer for having the job, so whats right and legal to do, stop the crime being committed, was in the end, wrong for the victims, when asked them and they had a voice. I personally thought the government did the right thing and stopped it and ended the company and its dealings, the victims had a different version completely, I know I spoke to some of them and they hated the government for shutting down the plant, one even said, compared to where we are being sent, this plant if like a salvation to us, even with what they did, I"ll be dead in a week where I'm being sent back to............. that kind of hit me hard............... abuse, deplorable working conditions, cheating wokers out of wages, using humnan beings and discarding them like trash, lying to them, robbing them blind and in the end, the victims still thought of them as some hero and a savior, so no I"ll not always understand because I didn't know what or where they came from and quit judging people and their country by my standards I have. Just a thought I'd pass along.
Now that said, I'll agree the company should have stepped up and done something, but are you and I any better, how much of your earnings did you send down to aid those people, half or all of it? Every year since, how much? I'll admit I'm not a humanitarian, never claimed to be, but don't bash a company for making money and not giving back what you feel they should, unless your prepared to give all you have all the time, we or at least I live in a free interprise system and like it that way, if injustice has occured step up to the plate and take action, buy shoe companies and better the wages and working conditions and then disribute the excess earnings back to the people, don't decare its someone else's responsibiity, you'd not accept someone dicating how you spend your money or how much you should give away, would you? First you can't give away what you don't have and its not yours till you have it in your hand, I've never dictated or condembed anyone for not giving away something I wan't willing to do myself. Don't set standards based on you or I, because if we do that, it works the same for everyone and someone might then deem you have more than they and are entitled to what you have.
Again thanks for the reading, if you have more pass it along, I'm always interested in how comes and outcomes. Sorry for the long boring post and rambling on.
Crime and corruption is not new by any means and will always be here or there, hopefully things are better than they were in the past, sometimes I wonder if this is the case, but hope drives us all in one way or another, we coud discuss literally the crimes committed in your example were actually done by the hands of their own people, same for my example, or that the governments did nothing for a long time in either case, but in the end that means little, but I also don't hold the actions of the individuals in my case against those that took their place and are operating today or transfer that anger to other legitimate companies opering anyhwere and deem one needs to make up for anothers wrong doing, I guess I'm not like that at all, I draw from the past to help plan for the future and not repeat past mistakes..........hopefully.
cutting edge
Senior Member
How American of you....:notworthy
remember that this is a Canadian company doing business in Canada....you do business according to local law.What's underhanded about that?
Hendrik
Senior Member
OK a more current wage info http://english.vietnamnet.vn/en/society/10608/minimum-wage-set-for-early-rise.html
22-27% is a big increase but most of that will be eaten up by inflation.
I think the central subject in this thread is how companies should behave, to simplify this we could say that on one side we have the pure capitalists, that think a business has the right to make as much profit as it possibly can by any means. If these means include poor working conditions and factory relocation, then so be it.
On the other side we have those (like me) who think that companies must also abide by basic human laws (by human laws I mean the ones that say treat each other well, sorta like the rules we have on this forum about how to behave).
I think the examples I brought forward do show that given a chance, most companies will adhere to the strict capitalist ideal of maximising profits any way they can.
Does the board of a company discuss how it can positively affect the world we live in? No they discuss profit maximisation.
When they do get caught out as being poor citizens of the world, they send in the spin doctors and pretend that they did not know about their sub-contractor doing this.
Hendrik, Theres more than just one central subject in this thread, I don't mean to cut anyone off at the knee's or bash anyone's view, but someone stated these things are complicated, I'd do the quote inserts I'm not sure how to do those, I understand fully where your coming from in thinking but again there are two sides to everything. I'll toss out another example from my area, a big not really box chain but rather a larger company wanted to put a shipping and retail outlet in my area quite a few years back and viewed my area as "cheap" labor compared to where they usually locate things, they in fact were right, so the selling point they had was they were going to "save" us and pay descent wages. Boy this was heaven, everyone jumped on this big time and "hope" drove everything, then the reality of the deal came to light, they proposed paying 2-3 times the average salery for "here" and things turned really ugly really fast, now whats the harm right? Well everyone applied, from school teachers, to fire fighters, to hospital personnel, to every store worker everywhere for up to and beyond 70 miles around, city personnel, skilled or not they were at the door to apply, so whats the harm right? Good for the economy good for people, good for the area. They were going to employ the best, anyone would right, thats the idea, it would clean out every position everywhere skilled or not, they offered benefits to literally die for which is far beyond anything anyone else could match overnight and if it went to pass, these jobs couldn't be replaced overnight, anywhere, and alarms went off all over the area, it got so ugly they were not issued permits to finish, delays were set up to stall progress and meetings were held by business's, towns management, hospitals management, fire department managemnt, police management, you name it they were there, and sat the company down and explained, yes what your proposing is great, however, your going to start with what is considered a "fair and comparable" wage for here and move forward s-l-o-w-l-y with wage increases, so slow in fact your not going to take hospital secretaries and hire them to stock shelves in your warehouse, or take firemen and police and park cars for you and take school teachers to mow your lawn in the summer and move snow in the winter, your gong to hire people more qualified for those positions and leave our employee's alone so we have our infrastructure in place we need for our communities, the rest of society can't switch that fast to compete with you coming from areas that are already adjusted to your pay scale. The outcome is what the area demaned it to be, they opened and were paying comparable wages to anyone else in the area. Just something to ponder, that ethics things works both ways, apparently its not just companies looking for the almighty buck but people as well, the civic duty and helping the public and staffing these important jobs that save lives was all somehow forgotten when someone offered them MORE than they were getting now even if it were for a lesser job outside your prized community where this pride thing runs deep and all the hype we hear all the time, I think one might consider it human nature, I'm not sure.
Next I've stated before that before you go to save someone, make sure they need saving, if in distress, something is going to be heard, seen, or noticed if in time, the plant you described with nike was in distress and was noticed and things must have been done because they are no longer being noticed in the press up to date. Now I can't argue with anyone that pennies per hour is not much for "here" but for "there" it is, and the workers must have gotten what they were after or the strike would still be in the press, I also read in the articles what exactly they were striking to get for increased wages, which to me is nothing for the meger increase, but to them it was what they wanted and felt they had to have, my opinon really won't matter to them, neither will yours because we're not there living it. But if the strike has ened and things have improved with working conditions and the people went back to work and the press stopped camping out at the doorstep, then for them they must have gotten what "they" wanted.
You also brought up the subject of capatilism, I actually agree with you that its drove socity to where its at today and hopefully into the future for hundreds of more years because out of the choices we've got capitalism, socialism, or communism, I"ll take the lesser of all evils and stick with what we've got, what your looking or asking for in thread #105 is perfection or a combination of all three, now I"m pretty sure nobody can have their pick of what parts best suits them and leave the parts that don't behind, that would be great and when you figure it out you'll become the humanitarian of all time and books will be written about you and lectures around the world will happen till the end of time, so not to poke fun but all seriousness, I do hope someone finds just that, maybe its what the world needs. But I'll also point out that for the last 100 plus years, those third world countries with "poor" people in the are not capatalist run and never have been so before you go bashing how bad of a system we're living in we all could be liviing and on strike for the wage increase of going from 40 to a whole whopping 45 bucks a month and have no freedom of anything including speach, something thats been pointed out to me by illegals plenty of times to me personally,... without the fear of being shot where I stand by onyone who disagrees with me, just because they can and will and there's nobody to stop them or do anything about it either. Now while on the subject of the poor countries how come nobody seems to think its wrong what "their" country has done to them, how come the question of working for less than 100 bucks a month was not somehow their governments fault? How come the world press had to be involved, why didn't the country itself step in and solve it long ago and have something in place, where is this civic duty and honor and the idea of fair not go towards the country of those people, not just the companies that are within that country, again its because things are done differently there and the rules are different as well and they don't have the same systems that we do and again I do like my capatilist systems that gave me those luxeries.
But since this thread is about cat and have still not gotten an answer to is the question of cats othe plants in asia and around the world, what do they pay, I'm guessing they are not having problems like nike did or the press would be reporting them, anyone have any ideas?
Next I've stated before that before you go to save someone, make sure they need saving, if in distress, something is going to be heard, seen, or noticed if in time, the plant you described with nike was in distress and was noticed and things must have been done because they are no longer being noticed in the press up to date. Now I can't argue with anyone that pennies per hour is not much for "here" but for "there" it is, and the workers must have gotten what they were after or the strike would still be in the press, I also read in the articles what exactly they were striking to get for increased wages, which to me is nothing for the meger increase, but to them it was what they wanted and felt they had to have, my opinon really won't matter to them, neither will yours because we're not there living it. But if the strike has ened and things have improved with working conditions and the people went back to work and the press stopped camping out at the doorstep, then for them they must have gotten what "they" wanted.
You also brought up the subject of capatilism, I actually agree with you that its drove socity to where its at today and hopefully into the future for hundreds of more years because out of the choices we've got capitalism, socialism, or communism, I"ll take the lesser of all evils and stick with what we've got, what your looking or asking for in thread #105 is perfection or a combination of all three, now I"m pretty sure nobody can have their pick of what parts best suits them and leave the parts that don't behind, that would be great and when you figure it out you'll become the humanitarian of all time and books will be written about you and lectures around the world will happen till the end of time, so not to poke fun but all seriousness, I do hope someone finds just that, maybe its what the world needs. But I'll also point out that for the last 100 plus years, those third world countries with "poor" people in the are not capatalist run and never have been so before you go bashing how bad of a system we're living in we all could be liviing and on strike for the wage increase of going from 40 to a whole whopping 45 bucks a month and have no freedom of anything including speach, something thats been pointed out to me by illegals plenty of times to me personally,... without the fear of being shot where I stand by onyone who disagrees with me, just because they can and will and there's nobody to stop them or do anything about it either. Now while on the subject of the poor countries how come nobody seems to think its wrong what "their" country has done to them, how come the question of working for less than 100 bucks a month was not somehow their governments fault? How come the world press had to be involved, why didn't the country itself step in and solve it long ago and have something in place, where is this civic duty and honor and the idea of fair not go towards the country of those people, not just the companies that are within that country, again its because things are done differently there and the rules are different as well and they don't have the same systems that we do and again I do like my capatilist systems that gave me those luxeries.
But since this thread is about cat and have still not gotten an answer to is the question of cats othe plants in asia and around the world, what do they pay, I'm guessing they are not having problems like nike did or the press would be reporting them, anyone have any ideas?
Abscraperguy
Senior Member
Cat got what they wanted
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/02/03/caterpillar-to-close-london-ont-locomotive-plant/
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/02/03/caterpillar-to-close-london-ont-locomotive-plant/
If you will research the mechanics of our financial collapse (the root of what has become a global collapse) you will find that ultimately the cause was large corporations who lacked the forsight(opposite of CAT), and ability to act thereon that CAT has shown in this situation. There were pleanty of warning signs, but the managers were unable/unwilling to act fast enough to abate the coming crisis. CAT saw the same warning signs, but acted on behalf of their shareholders and worked through the pain necessary to continue development of a healthy business. The executives of publicly traded companies in the US have actual personal fiduciary duties to their shareholders and board the breach of which is a federal crime. This is a story of people doing their job, and doing it well. They ought to be applauded rather than villified for their actions.
I read abscraperguy's link and in the commentary at the end, someone was making remarks about the filing of bankruptcy and cat buying this company out of bankruptcy, but it was told before that the business and company were making money, so which is it, was it a thriving financially sound business or did they in deed file bankruptcy and cat bought it out of bankruptcy?
BLASZER
Well-Known Member
Here in Buffalo, Milton Cat moved 30 miles away to get into a differant union local......where the new Site is ....The south side of the road is a higher paying local, and the north side is a lower paying local.........They were sure to be on the north side......I'm not turning this into a union issue, rather a greed issue on behalf of Cat.....The old shop Cat was in recently was taken over by Anderson Equip.....So the argument of the shop being no good isnt going to fly here...
GeoffD
Charter Member
How is Milton Cat the same as Cat? They are just a dealer. The Buffalo site may have been no good for Milton, but good enough for Anderson. I heard they closed two old small crappy locations and built one new fancy one in the Middle. The location of the site doesn't solve union issues when you have to send techs into both locals now does it? I just don't think that it is fair to speculate on the decisions that a company makes whith out knowing all the facts. Not saying that I know why they made the move, but unless you work high up there, I doubt you know all the facts. Why give a company a bad rap? When maybe thats not even the case.
BLASZER
Well-Known Member
..Now Milton only pays 1 mechanic the higher scale , the rest get the lower, regardless where the repair is being done..So this does solve the union issue in regards to the pay....I do know someone high enough to know what happenned and why it did....