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CAT getting nasty with workers in Canada

Davvinciman

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Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
82
Location
So. California
Occupation
Operating engineer and business owner
Wait till the overseas companies start underbidding all the jobs AND bring their own labor with them. I'll bet the tune changes because it's always some other persons problem until it's on your doorstep. Look a little farther down the road.
And Cat did take money from the Fed programs. And I don't care if they want to take their factory to some other state or country but I don't think it should be subsidized with my tax dollars and then tell me they should get a big tax break on top of it.
So I guess it comes down to what you believe and though I doubt ANYTHING is totally made in the US, I am going to support the people and companies that support the country I live and work in.
I am not going to wind up feeling like the chicken that just voted for Colonel Sanders.
I would say support your own country and countrymen or pretty soon, you might not have one. I just hope people wake up to some facts of life before it's too late.
 

DGODGR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Messages
1,062
Location
S/W CO
I must agree that it is unfortunate that Cat has reduced the wages of the workers. I certainly think that a free market system is the one that has worked best if you look at history. While it is unfortunate that the tide has changed and now wages are being reduced, let's not forget that the good times allowed the wages to increase and that Cat, and others, had to pay more to attract workers so that they could make the products and meet the demand of the market. Were the workers complaining then? Did they agree to work for less because they felt bad for the company? Of course not and who would blame them. It's cyclacle and right now we are on the down side of things.
On the flip side, I worry that maybe corporate greed, lets not pretend that it does not exist, is short sighted. While corporations are making record profits now I'm afraid that they are destroying their market base. After all it is the demands of the masses that will fuel the corporate machine. The masses has to be able to buy (either directly or indirectly) what the corporations are producing. Unless these corporations are banking on the Chinese, or somewhere else, middle class to create the demand. This is entirely possible and it may signal the end of the US being a great nation.
I also agree that we as consumers are short sighted. We are lementing the fact that everything is being made in China. We even complain about the poor quality. Yet we mindlessly treck, in droves, to places like Wal Mart (insert any one that is selling things from China) and give them a huge approval of their actions in the form massive amounts of MONEY.
The cycle has begun and it will take something significant to change it. It has been said before, in this thread, that we need to speak up. Gathering in a park and crying foul will not get it done. Your voice will best be heard by where, and what, you spend your money on. Made in the USA was once more than just a catch phrase. Can you spend more for MIA?
IMO our political system is broken too. I can rant all night but I think it's enough to say we need to make our politicians follow the same rules that they impose on us. Do you have what it takes to make the tough decisions?
It's not too late. We just need to be willing to make the tough choices instead of pointing our fingers at others.
Very though provoking post. Interesting to heear others thoughts as well.
 

Randy88

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
2,149
Location
iowa
Cutting edge, if we are so uninformed down here, where did cat get some government handout and bailout, with low interest loans to avoid bankruptcy, that we apparently missed, did this happen during chrysler and gm's bailout and we stupid americans never get told of it? They have downsized and closed some plants, and moved others to different companies, there is talk of moving their headquarters to a different state to have lower taxes, which in my opinion is a good business decision and I'd personally done it a long time ago but as for receiving millions in government bailout money I guess I was never told of this, when did it happen?

As for made in the usa, I'll agree to that to a certain extent, but you need to remember a few small details, first one being cat, and since this thread is about cat and its abuse of the people and their unfair treatment and gouging of the people, is a global company that sells worldwide, just where do you equate that into being american made? or should they make everything in the usa and export it to every other country? or better still should every country's product be made there in that country? You need to keep in mind they are not going to have the exact same plant making the same product in every country to keep those people happy by being made in their country, unless you plan on adding onto the price tag tremendously and are prepared to pay that added price. Cat just like every other large company are doing things for simplicity and also price competitive, they deal globally and sell globally and also buy globally, so if they have a need for dozers in anther country its cheaper and easier to make them in a few key plants and ship them around the world, same for excavators and everything else they make in their product line, now they also put plants in the same proximity as to the end user or an export port and watch trends in sales and such things, now I understand if all you've ever done is draw a paycheck and never actually managed anything before larger than a household this might be totally foreign to you but things are done for a reason and yes profits do drive them, shareholders expect profits or else stock falls and bad things happen to that company.

The next thing you and everyone else needs to remember is profits drove them into buying or putting up the plant your discussing right now in this thread and I'm sure cats decision to put it there originally wasn't hashed over and I'll also bet not many were complaining about cat at that time when hiring was done at that plant, so I'm not seeing why anyone should be crying in their beer cat wants to pay less now or reduce wages and compensation now. If your not agreeing with them all the workers can go together and buy the plant from cat and go into manufacturing themselves, I'm sure shortly the plant will be for sale anyhow at the rate this is going.

The hardest thing to accept is the following fact I'll toss out there, companies are not wanting to deal with "problem" plants, its a lot simpler to just close them and move onto an easier place to deal with, there are plenty of places around the world that would be excited to work for 15 bucks an hour and probably do a better job on top of it all, and appreciate the company being there, not complaining to anyone that will listen to them about how bad of a company they are how much too much money they make and how the workers are entitled to part of it or most of it and "need" to meet workers demands of higher wages and compensation. If you think that'll stop or slow down anytime soon I'm afraid your going to be sorrowfully mistaken, its only going to become a more common practice around the world. The next part of that statement is this, so unless you forgot it somewhere along the line I'll remind you of it now, workers and plants are "replaceable" yes that's right, your job can and will be replaced everyday, they do it on a small basis or a large basis and will continue to do that till the end of time and its not going to change anytime soon, any employee that causes them more grief than the work they do is going to be looking for a different job, and its not just cat, everyone does it, just because they are a larger company means nothing, you might think, since they are a larger traded company that you know what profits they make, since they are posted by law for traded companies, they should share that profit but small companies feel the same way. A worker is hired to do a job, they are paid to make them money and a lot of it in most cases and when they no longer make them money they'll be replaced, or when they cause more grief than they are worth they'll also be replaced, now when an entire plant causes the company more grief than its worth, its called a plant closing and relocation of the plant elsewhere.

What your talking in this thread is employee vs. management, its not a union deal at all, but more of an employee thing and yes everything changes in life and if things were done a certain way even 10 years ago, things do change and companies are tired of constantly having to negotiate wages and workers compensation or face a strike or plant shut down or production delays or anything like that, times are changing and so will negotiating by workers. In case you've been asleep the last few decades and didn't pay attention to whats going on, I"ll shed some light on this for you, 35 bucks an hour is in the past for workers in your plant, they are offering 15 bucks an hour and benefits are being cut, I'd think maybe instead of bashing them everywhere look for a different job, its not going to long and the plant will be shut anyhow, they are tired of dealing with you and already have a backup plan when workers won't take less, worldwide, people will view this as follows, workers in canada won't accept the wages and benefits offered and the plant was relocated to a place where workers were not only wiling but excited to work for the wages offered. What does this mean to you, the world will view you as unwilling to work for a fair wage, and also your advertising to other companies what will happen to them if they attempt to put a plant in your area and how you treat them once they are there, if you don't believe me keep it up and pay attention to what happens in the near and distant future. I"m not sure how long the plant was there or what wages were when the plant opened along with benefits and really don't care, but I'm guessing thats soon to be in the past as the plant moves elsewhere and frankly don't blame them one bit, I"m surprised they were there as long as they were, labor might be strong and mighty and for some things have valid points, but in the newer safer standards set by the governments in most countries, there's little need to negotiate with labor anymore, they are and always have been replaceable, whats happening now is more of a global thing verses a isolated thing like firing troublemakers within a work shift or within a plant. Now if anyone was asleep in the past cat also fired or laid off white collar jobs lately, not just plant workers, but the next level up as well, so nobody is immune to worker layoff, its getting to be more of a job performance thing and we'll see it more as time goes by.
 

Davvinciman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
82
Location
So. California
Occupation
Operating engineer and business owner
Keep guessing

Everybody has their opinion. Glad to see the line spelled out so clearly because how some define "fair wage" obviously is not. Take what you can get and like it. Hah! Keep guessing.
Why did the economic crisis happen? “a GMM estimator with an ensuring J-test is a consistent econometric method...” or “the individual companies sensitivity to interest rate or varies dramatically from significant positive for investment grade names to significant negative for speculative grade names...” or “several empirical studies of structural models based on CDS (credit default swap) data...”.
There are people that understand the language of economics but when they can't even tell you why this happened or who got so greedy that they couldn't care about wrecking the “accepted behavior” that we ALL agree to live under (by voting), I start to question the “regulations”.
Could it have been averted? What can we do to keep it from happening again?
It's like going to a job and saying “it will take me a day to dig this hole”. Then you hit rock and things slow to a crawl but nobody asks why it happened. Do they just say “that's the way it is”?. “Yah, didn't see that one coming”. “What's a soils test?” "Don't worry, be happy". Unacceptable. As Eddie Murphy said, "I ain't going for no banana in my tail pipe."
And if you didn't know Cat took a “bailout”, I understand perfectly. Most of the lawmakers didn't even know what the Fed was doing. No transparency there. Transparency is a four letter work in some circles.
It's like the way they decided to change how they calculate unemployment figures in 1991, if I remember correctly (IIRC). If they are unemployed over a year, we consider them unemployable and take them off the list. WOW! The unemployment figures dropped overnight, until you look at why.
If you don't want to admit that there is corporate welfare, I doubt I will be able to make the case here but when things stop adding up, I don't stick my head in the sand and say “That's just the system. Can't fight city hall”.
This industry didn't fall apart by accident. And I'm not going to "move on".
 

milling_drum

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Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
725
Location
out west lately
Occupation
asphalt mill operator (ret)
CAT being what it is makes decisions that none of us will ever fully know of because they are a private entity accountable to the stockholders, THEY, know how and why and even vote on what decisions are made in many cases.

What we are scraping on here subject wise is the huge number of cutbacks, not just with CAT, we are seeing this in MANY areas of the infrastructure lately. Here's a little example if anybody cares too think about it...

All this blah blah blah about stimulus money being shot into the economy has gone on most of our lives, and, prior to this last blah blah blah more stimulus money blah blah, usually it meant balls to the wall work until the money ran out. Well from what I've seen this last blast of stimulus the current administration promised hasn't turned into the glut of work we were accustomed too...it just seems like it never really took off...agree? disagree?

Well, from what I've been told from different depts who procure money from the feds for state and county/municipal work is that feds have a fair amount of money set aside for alot of jobs to be done but that they are NOT releasing it all at once because of the amount of corruption involved in PRIOR stimulus injections....all over this wonderful country there are plenty of holes with lots of money in them that NEVER got used or filled in.....This administration is purposely releasing stimulus funds at a much slower rate for a purpose....same as CAT is paying people lower wages so they do NOT have to open a plant in Burma where they can pay a SKILLED person a LOWER wage to do a job that might even result in a BETTER product OR result in buying higher grades of steel which is more expensive and just simply letting the rope go as far as workers wages....

hm?
 

Nige

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Location
G..G..G..Granville.........!! Fetch your cloth.
I find this clip from a TV show extremely illuminating regarding the world economic crash of 2008, especially as it was actually broadcast over a year BEFORE the crash actually happened .............. how did the writers of this show accurately predict what was coming when apparently all the combined genius of the financial world didn't..?

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/187.html
 

Abscraperguy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
265
Location
Grande Prairie, Ab
I think most people are looking at this, but not seeing what's really going on. This isn't a union issue, but a corporate greed issue.

Cat is closing the London factory, that's life, that's business, and that's unavoidable. It's unfortunate, and as much as I'd love to see it stay put, it's not going to happen. Does this make me upset? Not really, it's life, and it's business.

What does make me a bit upset, is the way Cat is doing it. They have employees, and the employees, by law, are entitled to severance if the plant closes. Now, if Cat out and out closes the plant, then they pay the severance, deal with the legal and financial issues with the different tax laws, and move on. That's what should happen. However, if they are shut down due to a labour dispute, they can effectively shut the plant down after a specified period of time....I think it's two years, and they don't have to pay all of the costs associated with closing the plant....tax issues, severance, etc, etc.

So, Cat puts out a lowball deal, to either cause a strike, or have excuse to lock them out, and they can sit on it, knowing they have their other plant up and running and able to cover the loco orders. Then, when the time period runs out, they announce the plant closure, and the ex-employees don't get the money they were owed. That's what makes the whole deal underhanded. This is how they are effectively screwing over the workers, by using these kind of tactics, not by cutting wages and benefits, or closing the plant.

Wage cuts and concessions are the way things are going right now, but using a loophole to ensure you don't have to pay your people the money you owe them, is just plain low.

It's not a union vs non union issue at all.....I work non union, and I make almost twice what they were making per hour, and have better benefits too.

Has everyone read the above post? This is what's happening. In reading some of the following posts its obvious people are missing the point

...the next thing you and everyone else needs to remember is profits drove them into buying or putting up the plant your discussing right now in this thread and I'm sure cats decision to put it there originally wasn't hashed over and I'll also bet not many were complaining about cat at that time when hiring was done at that plant, so I'm not seeing why anyone should be crying in their beer cat wants to pay less now or reduce wages and compensation now. If your not agreeing with them all the workers can go together and buy the plant from cat and go into manufacturing themselves, I'm sure shortly the plant will be for sale anyhow at the rate this is going.

The hardest thing to accept is the following fact I'll toss out there, companies are not wanting to deal with "problem" plants, its a lot simpler to just close them and move onto an easier place to deal with, there are plenty of places around the world that would be excited to work for 15 bucks an hour and probably do a better job on top of it all, and appreciate the company being there, not complaining to anyone that will listen to them about how bad of a company they are how much too much money they make and how the workers are entitled to part of it or most of it and "need" to meet workers demands of higher wages and compensation. If you think that'll stop or slow down anytime soon I'm afraid your going to be sorrowfully mistaken, its only going to become a more common practice around the world. The next part of that statement is this, so unless you forgot it somewhere along the line I'll remind you of it now, workers and plants are "replaceable" yes that's right, your job can and will be replaced everyday, they do it on a small basis or a large basis and will continue to do that till the end of time and its not going to change anytime soon, any employee that causes them more grief than the work they do is going to be looking for a different job, and its not just cat, everyone does it, just because they are a larger company means nothing, you might think, since they are a larger traded company that you know what profits they make, since they are posted by law for traded companies, they should share that profit but small companies feel the same way. A worker is hired to do a job, they are paid to make them money and a lot of it in most cases and when they no longer make them money they'll be replaced, or when they cause more grief than they are worth they'll also be replaced, now when an entire plant causes the company more grief than its worth, its called a plant closing and relocation of the plant elsewhere.

What your talking in this thread is employee vs. management, its not a union deal at all, but more of an employee thing and yes everything changes in life and if things were done a certain way even 10 years ago, things do change and companies are tired of constantly having to negotiate wages and workers compensation or face a strike or plant shut down or production delays or anything like that, times are changing and so will negotiating by workers. In case you've been asleep the last few decades and didn't pay attention to whats going on, I"ll shed some light on this for you, 35 bucks an hour is in the past for workers in your plant, they are offering 15 bucks an hour and benefits are being cut, I'd think maybe instead of bashing them everywhere look for a different job, its not going to long and the plant will be shut anyhow, they are tired of dealing with you and already have a backup plan when workers won't take less, worldwide, people will view this as follows, workers in canada won't accept the wages and benefits offered and the plant was relocated to a place where workers were not only wiling but excited to work for the wages offered. What does this mean to you, the world will view you as unwilling to work for a fair wage, and also your advertising to other companies what will happen to them if they attempt to put a plant in your area and how you treat them once they are there, if you don't believe me keep it up and pay attention to what happens in the near and distant future. I"m not sure how long the plant was there or what wages were when the plant opened along with benefits and really don't care, but I'm guessing thats soon to be in the past as the plant moves elsewhere and frankly don't blame them one bit, I"m surprised they were there as long as they were, labor might be strong and mighty and for some things have valid points, but in the newer safer standards set by the governments in most countries, there's little need to negotiate with labor anymore, they are and always have been replaceable, whats happening now is more of a global thing verses a isolated thing like firing troublemakers within a work shift or within a plant. Now if anyone was asleep in the past cat also fired or laid off white collar jobs lately, not just plant workers, but the next level up as well, so nobody is immune to worker layoff, its getting to be more of a job performance thing and we'll see it more as time goes by.

While I don't side with the the workers in Ontario I definitely won't be asking you for a job. Employees are only at a company to make them money but a person kills employee morale the minute he starts making them feel like it.

A few corrections.
1. This was NOT a problem plant. This plant was producing a reliable product that was giving Cat's own products a run for their money.
2. Any wage cut hurts. Whether you make a million and suddenly only get half or whether you make 20/hr and then get cut to 10/hr.
3. Your statement about the manufacturing industry avoiding areas of apparent labour unrest is not entirely true. Skilled trades (which was most of this plants crew) aren't in an over abundance and training isn't overnight. Unskilled are easily replaceable and in essence are disposable.
4. Yes profits drove them into buying this plant but I don't believe it was the profits of THIS plant per se. This plant was putting out a good product that competed with Cat's own. It might have also been the desire to amalgamate their plants after they had more of a corner on the market.
5. The way the skilled trades market is in Canada right now and for sure if those workers wanted to come to Western Canada only a suicidal company would try pulling the stunt that Cat did. Note Alco's post.

In reality Cat is only wrong on ONE point and Alco explained it wonderfully.
 

Randy88

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
2,149
Location
iowa
Abscraperguy, your analysis of the situation is fine, I can only disagree with you on several issues here, the first one being, and since most out there have forgot this, including management [company owners] and expecially employee's is the simple fact, everyone is expendable, except one in any business equation and thats the customer, without him there is no company or employee's, during the 80's most business's forgot this and allmost paid with their companies from this simple truth. I as a business owner and also expendable, life will go on fine without me if I were to die tonight in my sleep, as would any business if it were to happen to you, we are in all essence expendable and replaceable, hard may it be to admit sometimes, but its true, my entire business can and will be replaced overnight if I didn't compete in the markets as we know them today, if I'm undercut on bids, if people don't like my work, if I do poor quality work, whatever the case its called life and maybe its time some out there accept that and learn to deal with it.

Now as for cat and their dealings, either you have never had to wonder where tomorrows lunch came from ever in life or had to actually go out and compete in the market place for much of anything, but cat's done nothing wrong, they had a plant making a product they bought, the entire thing, lock stock and barrel, if they wanted to expand it and add 200,000 workers at the existing facility its their right to do so, if they want to move it elsewhere, they certainly can do that as well, if the plant was for sale and the employee's didn't want to buy it, then I can't feel sorry one bit for them, if they wanted to but were outbid on the deal, then for maybe a minute I'd feel sorry for them because they lost, if they never attempted to buy which it sounds llike they didn't, then why the complaining now and bad mouthing cat, any company that would have bought it would do the same thing.

I understand you feel you have great company and people and a wonderful location etc, etc, etc. but its business and once the company is bought, its theirs to do with as they wish, to them it was a problem plant, if you choose to not accept that, so be it, others can and will see it for what it is, they either had wage issues, government issues, transportation issues, or just plain in the past had prior owner issues and had an grudge to bear, whatever, they had a problem with the plant and its employee's, and its how the world will view it as well weather you like it or not or will ever accept it, thats your problem.

If any other company would have bought it, things would be going about the same, these companies deal globally, and what that equates to you and your plant is this, you now will compete on a global market, if wages are about 15-20 dollars globally without benefits, then so be it, if your not willing to take it someone out there is, is it fair to you ................. no, but its what you should have seen coming when cat or anyone else was dealing on the plant, they owe it to "their" company to get the best deal possible, remember, the plant wasn't given to them they paid top dollar for it, and if they chose to eliminate competition by buying it and closing it, they can do so because they now own it, no different than your own house or vehicle, if you choose to neglect them and not take care of them its "your" right to be able to do that or if you want to spend endlessly on either you can do that as well, it comes with ownership and thats why companies buy plants, equipment, patents, or anything else is to control them and what they are legally able to do with them. As for being underhanded and sleezy about handling it, that might be your view, but most out there will disagree with you, first off, why are you mad at cat? because they stopped your gravey train and easy life? why not be upset with the sellers, they in essense sold you all out for the biggest buck?? They didn't offer it to the employee's to buy or set it up so they employee's could buy it, they never explained what they knew was coming for you and your frieinds, they in essence were the sleezy underhanded ones you should be mad at, not cat and thats how everyone else outside your world will view it weather you can see that or accept that, its true. They could have sold it in "your" best interst but chose not to, they could have some of these things in the contract when it was sold but chose not to, it would hurt their sales of their plant and they knew it, so whats the beef with cat about? Either you''ve been fed some line of bull by them or the employee's are about as ignorant as they come as far as knowing anything about business today in the real world, I'm not sure which, but if you were led to believe life was going to not only continue the same or get better, which is what I'm sure was fed to you by the late owners, you were gullable to believe it, so where is it cats fault? Did they come in and guarantee everyone there to not only keep their job but receive a pay raise and put that in writing? They may have come to speak and what they said may have sounded good but did they sit you down to have a one on one guarantee.................... no because your expendable and replaceable in the world wide market of business....................... is this sinking in anytime soon, if not in the upcoming years it might, but doubtfull, because after all, your skilled labor and no one can replace you right? You spent years to train and have a house payment to make and kids to raise and hopes and dreams of a life you once lived, yea, your the only one who has those, so your special and irreplaceable. If this offends you so be it, I have the tendance to tell it like it is, and as for ever working for me, its not going to happen, you can't seem to grasp your place in llife and only those that can will work for me, they are not special either, neither am I, nor my business, we are all replaceable and need to compete for our livelihood and those that work for me understand this and can cope, its got nothing to do with moral or anything else, they are workers who do a good job and perform that job to high standards or they know they will be replaced, they are a valuable asset to me and my company and are told that, but also know if they slip anywhere they will be replaced, if that makes me a bad boss, so be it, at least I never told them life would continue like it is or get better if I were to selll out my business to someone, anyone else, because I know its not true, thats what my employee's get, the truth, so look for work elsewhere, we have no jobs for you here.

As for cat being underhanded and sleezy, we'll wait to hear what charges they are up on and face, I'm sure it'll be in the papers everywhere, until then I'm thinking they are within the law, now nowhere have I seen whats become of the late owners? you know the acutal sleezy underhanded ones, the ones you have worked for and hired all those at that plant and gave them thier hopes and dreams and a wage thats above the global market, yea those, that apparently couldn't hang onto thier business and sold it out........................... I'm wondering if they couldnt compete globally? I'm thinking maybe they were paying too high of wages, or had issues with either financially, worker related, or costs were too high, or had managment issues that led to having too high of a priced product and others were undercutting them in the open markets, maybe it was transportation costs or steel costs........................ well we'll really never know anything of actually what caused the sale, only what the workers were told, but from past history, they might have been told the "whole" truth so why believe them now after the fact as to why they didn't keep the plant and keep making the billons each year the workers obviously made them every year, I'm sure it was so profitable of a plant the banks in canada couldn't handle all the deposits from the profit every year and thats why it was sold to the highest bidder for the most dollars, it had nothing to do with greed or a need for the almighty buck, thank god your prior owners were ammune from that problem and they did it in the interst of their loyal employee's who gave them so much over the years they felt they needed to give back to them at the end, yea its cats fault, keep dreaming.
 

catken

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
123
Location
central Nebraska
Give you an example of labor costs. In the middle 70's cat mfg the 910, 931, and D3. They cast everyting here in the USA and shipped it to Japan and had it all assembled and then shipped back here. But what wasn't made public was the cost savings. I don't remember exactly but it was around $1,800 to $2,000 per machine. The machine was around $20,000 U.S. or something like that. Been awhile since I thought about this. Cat did this to be competetive with the other small line stuff that was starting to be mfg. around the world and this in turn help keep them in the small line business. One must remember that they are not only a North America company, but a world wide company. Cat has done this world wide.Just like going to China and building a plant! Hey to you want a share of the market or not? We should be lucky that they even keep world Hdqtrs in Peoria! Gosh people, it's a changing world.
 

Abscraperguy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
265
Location
Grande Prairie, Ab
Randy 88 you are missing the point. Or are you a spokes person for Cat and purposely putting a spin on it? Read Alco's post again. You are not catching on. The way Cat is doing this is underhanded and sleazy but you'll never read about it because it is be done in a way that is technically above reproach.

Now as for cat and their dealings, either you have never had to wonder where tomorrows lunch came from ever in life or had to actually go out and compete in the market place for much of anything, but cat's done nothing wrong, they had a plant making a product they bought, the entire thing, lock stock and barrel, if they wanted to expand it and add 200,000 workers at the existing facility its their right to do so, if they want to move it elsewhere, they certainly can do that as well, if the plant was for sale and the employee's didn't want to buy it, then I can't feel sorry one bit for them, if they wanted to but were outbid on the deal, then for maybe a minute I'd feel sorry for them because they lost, if they never attempted to buy which it sounds llike they didn't, then why the complaining now and bad mouthing cat, any company that would have bought it would do the same thing.

I understand you feel you have great company and people and a wonderful location etc, etc, etc. but its business and once the company is bought, its theirs to do with as they wish, to them it was a problem plant, if you choose to not accept that, so be it, others can and will see it for what it is, they either had wage issues, government issues, transportation issues, or just plain in the past had prior owner issues and had an grudge to bear, whatever, they had a problem with the plant and its employee's, and its how the world will view it as well weather you like it or not or will ever accept it, thats your problem.

If any other company would have bought it, things would be going about the same, these companies deal globally, and what that equates to you and your plant is this, you now will compete on a global market, if wages are about 15-20 dollars globally without benefits, then so be it, if your not willing to take it someone out there is, is it fair to you ................. no, but its what you should have seen coming when cat or anyone else was dealing on the plant, they owe it to "their" company to get the best deal possible, remember, the plant wasn't given to them they paid top dollar for it, and if they chose to eliminate competition by buying it and closing it, they can do so because they now own it, no different than your own house or vehicle, if you choose to neglect them and not take care of them its "your" right to be able to do that or if you want to spend endlessly on either you can do that as well, it comes with ownership and thats why companies buy plants, equipment, patents, or anything else is to control them and what they are legally able to do with them. As for being underhanded and sleezy about handling it, that might be your view, but most out there will disagree with you, first off, why are you mad at cat? because they stopped your gravey train and easy life? why not be upset with the sellers, they in essense sold you all out for the biggest buck?? They didn't offer it to the employee's to buy or set it up so they employee's could buy it, they never explained what they knew was coming for you and your frieinds, they in essence were the sleezy underhanded ones you should be mad at, not cat and thats how everyone else outside your world will view it weather you can see that or accept that, its true. They could have sold it in "your" best interst but chose not to, they could have some of these things in the contract when it was sold but chose not to, it would hurt their sales of their plant and they knew it, so whats the beef with cat about? Either you''ve been fed some line of bull by them or the employee's are about as ignorant as they come as far as knowing anything about business today in the real world, I'm not sure which, but if you were led to believe life was going to not only continue the same or get better, which is what I'm sure was fed to you by the late owners, you were gullable to believe it, so where is it cats fault? Did they come in and guarantee everyone there to not only keep their job but receive a pay raise and put that in writing? They may have come to speak and what they said may have sounded good but did they sit you down to have a one on one guarantee.................... no because your expendable and replaceable in the world wide market of business....................... is this sinking in anytime soon, if not in the upcoming years it might, but doubtfull, because after all, your skilled labor and no one can replace you right? You spent years to train and have a house payment to make and kids to raise and hopes and dreams of a life you once lived, yea, your the only one who has those, so your special and irreplaceable. If this offends you so be it, I have the tendance to tell it like it is, and as for ever working for me, its not going to happen, you can't seem to grasp your place in llife and only those that can will work for me, they are not special either, neither am I, nor my business, we are all replaceable and need to compete for our livelihood and those that work for me understand this and can cope, its got nothing to do with moral or anything else, they are workers who do a good job and perform that job to high standards or they know they will be replaced, they are a valuable asset to me and my company and are told that, but also know if they slip anywhere they will be replaced, if that makes me a bad boss, so be it, at least I never told them life would continue like it is or get better if I were to selll out my business to someone, anyone else, because I know its not true, thats what my employee's get, the truth, so look for work elsewhere, we have no jobs for you here.

As for cat being underhanded and sleezy, we'll wait to hear what charges they are up on and face, I'm sure it'll be in the papers everywhere, until then I'm thinking they are within the law, now nowhere have I seen whats become of the late owners? well we'll really never know anything of actually what caused the sale, only what the workers were told, but from past history, they might have been told the "whole" truth so why believe them now after the fact as to why they didn't keep the plant and keep making the billons each year the workers obviously made them every year, I'm sure it was so profitable of a plant the banks in canada couldn't handle all the deposits from the profit every year and thats why it was sold to the highest bidder for the most dollars, it had nothing to do with greed or a need for the almighty buck, thank god your prior owners were ammune from that problem and they did it in the interst of their loyal employee's who gave them so much over the years they felt they needed to give back to them at the end, yea its cats fault, keep dreaming.

Your post makes me ready to blow a gasket. If it was the truth it would be one thing but to twist things to your own liking and then lecture on them is low (just like Cat LOL). First of all I don't work for Cat and don't know anyone who worked in this plant. Your constant insinuations of never having to leave a job or having lost one are entirely false. I have packed up and moved thousands of miles away for a supposed good job and after being there 3 days found out it wasn't. Did I just lay down and die? In that case I stuck it out and sometime later it after I had risen through the ranks it was more palatable. Workers are disposable but you might get more out of yours if you treated them like humans. I'm not talking about being really sweet to them, I'm talking about BASIC respect. And as far as working for you I have had more job offers than I can do with it.

Ok I'm getting off track here too. The only issue here is what alco said.

What does make me a bit upset, is the way Cat is doing it. They have employees, and the employees, by law, are entitled to severance if the plant closes. Now, if Cat out and out closes the plant, then they pay the severance, deal with the legal and financial issues with the different tax laws, and move on. That's what should happen. However, if they are shut down due to a labour dispute, they can effectively shut the plant down after a specified period of time....I think it's two years, and they don't have to pay all of the costs associated with closing the plant....tax issues, severance, etc, etc.

So, Cat puts out a lowball deal, to either cause a strike, or have excuse to lock them out, and they can sit on it, knowing they have their other plant up and running and able to cover the loco orders. Then, when the time period runs out, they announce the plant closure, and the ex-employees don't get the money they were owed. That's what makes the whole deal underhanded. This is how they are effectively screwing over the workers, by using these kind of tactics, not by cutting wages and benefits, or closing the plant.

Wage cuts and concessions are the way things are going right now, but using a loophole to ensure you don't have to pay your people the money you owe them, is just plain low.

It's not a union vs non union issue at all.....I work non union, and I make almost twice what they were making per hour, and have better benefits too.
 

AustinM

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
68
Location
wyoming
Is that a Canadian Law Abscraperguy? That CAT would be required to pay severance if the plant closes? I know that if the company I worked for went belly up or decided to move to a different state or even a different country I wouldn't expect a severance package, nor would they be required to give me one.
 

Davvinciman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
82
Location
So. California
Occupation
Operating engineer and business owner
Sell out your beliefs for a few dollars more. The shareholders don't make a damn thing but they are the excuse you use for unfair trade practices. And corporations are not great "free enterprisers" you make them out to be. They want to eliminate competition. They want the whole pie. MONEY IS THEIR GOD! At least, the way it's being described here. Randy88 said "its got nothing to do with moral or anything else". Exactly. Don't expect them to abide by accepted norms of behavior. And the shareholders are the excuse? That's why there is no transparency. There would be a riot tomorrow if they knew all the things they are into and how little they care about anything except profits.
The gold standard? We went off that so that globalization could happen. You don't want a countries value tied to anything as real as gold. You can't manipulate how much gold you have.
Re-invent myself? Yah, sure. I have. But reading some of these articles, some people don't want healthy competition when it lands on their doorstep. Look at the steel industry. And they sure as hell tried it with US automakers. Why? Cut the dead weight; legacy costs (pensioners). Ooh, regulation (laws). There is that dirty word again. They don't want little guys innovating or having lower overhead or treating their workers better because they know them on a personal basis. That would be so...anti-corporate. They have to support their corporate structure. It's monkey-see, monkey-do. Innovation does not come from within corporate ranks. Just like that "you're not special" philosophy'
This crap about "That's just the way it is" is changing and no matter how you fight it, the pendulum will always swing the other way. Especially when the system gets so abused as it has been lately.
 

milling_drum

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
725
Location
out west lately
Occupation
asphalt mill operator (ret)
Theres a few issues with the province of Ontario that may have caused CAT to make these actions, I would never defend corporate procedures to any degree but it is what it is....Canada is a much different animal than America in many respects.

I had a friend that worked at the Brampton plant spray painting new equipment back in the 80's, his hourly was close to $30. That was a staggering amount of money per hour back then and I do not think the rates went up much over the years to match inflation there in Ontario.
 

Randy88

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
2,149
Location
iowa
Ok abscraperguy, I don't work for cat either, never have and don't own any cat equipment any more, first off, I don't think I'm not the one missing the big picture here, the plant was sold along with the business, we seem to agree on that issue. As for being sleezy, its not sleezy, its business and how its done today, weather we agree its good bad or whatever, they are following the law, any company would do the same thing, if people get hurt, they are how shall we say collateral damage, cat bought the business and can do with it as they wish, which they are doing, they never, and I assume that because they usually never do negotiage with the prior employee's, because they don't have to by law, until after they buy the plant. One persons idea of sleezy and underhanded is anothers good business decions, but negotiations could have taken place by the prior owners on "behalf" of the then current employee's, which by all reading done, didn't take place, it usually never does except in instances where the selling company thinks enough of its employee's to put stipulations in the contract to protect them, which limits the saleability of the plant and the amount they'd get for it, I"m not sure if we agree on this or not, but usually how its done.

I understand you think they are sidestepping the law by not paying the severace to the workers, but in essence the former owner could have done this as well, but was cheaper for him not to do so, so who's sleezier here on the deal, the sellers or the buyers? I have no doubt that cats working to get out of paying any of them anything, but remember any other company buying it would basically do the same thing, so take it for whats its worth. The sellers could have also not only protected the workers and those jobs, but also the revenue for the city and or providence, which they didin't do either or chose not to do, its got nothing to do with unions or nonunions, its a business decision, plain and simple, cat hasn't broke any laws, they are obeying them, I'd guess to the letter of the law, they really don't want bad publicity anywhere about wrong dealings, no company today does, so in the end, the plant will probably be shut down and eliminated, its a tragic deal for those going through it, and sad to see it happen, but it does happen every day, all over the world. They can use any excuse they want to shut down the plant, at any time, its just a job and those that work there really can't and don't have the right to tell them what to do, they can negotiate, if the company is willing, but by the sounds of this, they are not, they probably had things planned out from day one of negotiations, anybody would when this many dollars are at stake.

So in summing this up, your thinking they are using sleezy tactics to avoid paying the workers their due compensation, I get that, no problem on my end, the problem seems to lie in the idea that legally they don't have to do that, well then press to have the law rewritten because until then its done all the time, I've had family go throught the same thing, but with a printing company, with plant buying and closures and its prefectly legal and done, sleezy is I guess anyone's idea of the term, you seem to think its cats being sleezy, I'm thinking its the sellers who were scrupulous and underhanded sleeving the whole area and its people in the end, so I guess we'll differ on opinons there, but I'd tend to say, worldwide most will view it my way vs. yours because its way more common than you think and happens all the time, apparently further from home than you hear about. The outcome is probably going to be the same in the end, doors locked, jobs gone and it will soon fade into memory of those left behind, not sure if we agree on this or not. Now for being low, did cat run the plant and if so how long before the terms came about? If it was long enough to basically shut the place down, where does it equate into the work force being cats, because they bought the business? This can take seveal years to achieve and hash out the paperwork, I'd tend to say that cat never felt they were "their" workers and thus didn't owe them anything, the ones that actually owed them was the sellers, not the buyers, who I'd guess bailed on them in the end, uness there's more to the story than we are being told, so again, we get to differ on who's doing anything underhanded and sleezy.

As for causing a stike by offering lower wages, thats one opinion, what would happen if the workers took the offer?? Would the plant remain open? Now I'll toss this out there to think about, what would have happened if cat offered more in wages than the prior owners? Would it be viewed then as the prior owners being sleezy and holding out on the workers?

If your thinking the only issue here is what alco stated, maybe think again, these deals are complex and detailed and I'd venture a guess maybe a lot is not being thought about by many, there are reasons why the plant was sold, reasons why the workers were not protected by the sellers, who bought it and why, what they intended to do with it once bought and the list is endless, if you want to view it as cat's screwing the workers, go for it, in the end the customers of cat will view the details to see if they wish to continue doing business with them or not and thats all that really matters, because in the end the customers pay all the bills, not just labors, but also managements and cat along with all the rest have figured out how not to offend customers and turn off the dollars that feed them and I'd venture to say, they have my vote and I'd look harder to buy cat products after this because they do run a "business" and are finally taking care of business which has been neglected for decades. I could write a new thread on that alone, but it might be more than some can handle, expecially labor.

Now for me being a war monger and hard butt, I"ll not disagree with that one bit, first off to know and understand one's place in the business equation isn't bad, and if this offends you, sorry, but to me there is only one important equation to any sucessfull business and thats the "CUSTOMER" and all the rest are replaceable, he pays the bills, pays the wages, buys the stuff any company needs to operate and to me he is the king, not labor or even management because without him, the customer, the rest doesn't exist. My workers/help are made aware of this constantly and know where they stand in the equation and give the customer the respect he deserves along with the service he or she deserves, now I call it like I see it and make no bones about it, I am replaceable and my business is as well if the customer goes elswhere, so is my help, we are all basically equal on that topic. On the topic of worker respect, we could deal with that one some too, along with respect coming from the workers back to managment, it works both ways, but apparently my employee's feel they get respect or they'd have left a long time ago. As for moral and whatever else you want to discuss, I'm not sure how canada works but around here we don't tippy toe around a subject, we deal with it, and until some other revenue comes along, the customer will be the single most important thing there is, no matter what your told there. As for working for me, I don't advertise for help they come to me, as for moving and constantly looking for work, I've been self employee'd now for over 30 years and still in business, so maybe I have done a thing or two right over the years, that and business is growing in these economic times. Take it for what its worth, but my opinon is thats cats done nothing wrong and until you or someone else submits something to disprove it, my opinion stands as stated, but I also believe there are a whole lot of issues here other than the one you can't seem to get past or see beyond.

Sorry to come across as lecturing and condesending, I don't work for cat or any other company, never have, but I do understand business and how things are done, in the past and present and how thing have changed around the world somewhat and how it affects me and my business and am always looking for ways to become more efficient and profitable to reamin in business for another 30 plus years and no I don't plan on employing my current employee's for life, I tell them that day one, I expect them to move onto bigger and better things or to own thier own business someday, they deserve it and should have it and strive for them to achieve just that, you call it lack of respect, I call it tough love and educating them on life and how the world works, guess we'll differ on that as well, maybe some just need coddling a lot more than others is all, not sure which, but don't blow a gasket over this, we're only chatting about someone else's problems and not about our own, if you'd like we could chat about our own for a while, do you have any kids to complain about, if not I'll lend you some teenager girls but that might be somewhat off topic.
 

Abscraperguy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
265
Location
Grande Prairie, Ab
Is that a Canadian Law Abscraperguy? That CAT would be required to pay severance if the plant closes? I know that if the company I worked for went belly up or decided to move to a different state or even a different country I wouldn't expect a severance package, nor would they be required to give me one.

Unfortunately in Ontario with all their regulation it is like that. If there wasn't a law like it, people wouldn't make a big deal. Do I hate regulation? You bet. But NO company is above the law.

Theres a few issues with the province of Ontario that may have caused CAT to make these actions, I would never defend corporate procedures to any degree but it is what it is....Canada is a much different animal than America in many respects.

I had a friend that worked at the Brampton plant spray painting new equipment back in the 80's, his hourly was close to $30. That was a staggering amount of money per hour back then and I do not think the rates went up much over the years to match inflation there in Ontario.

That is plain crazy for a wage. Those wages alone are enough for me to wonder how any plant can make money. When I worked for wages I never came anywhere near that kind of wage. In fact the best job I ever had was one that paid very little above minimum wage. The work was boring (blowing attic insulation) but the boss was awesome and treated his employees like humans. If everyone was like him there would be no unions which would suit me fine.

Randy88 I give up. I think neither of us entirely understand the other. When reading your posts and ignoring your jabs I mostly agree with what you say. Although I'm not grey haired I grew up around my Dad's business, have been other business' employees, have been manager, and business owner so I don't speak as an uninformed layman. Unfortunately here in Canada, and specifically provinces like Ontario, are heavily regulated and it drags down the mfg industry. Lest you think that I am pro-union guess again. I grew up in a province that the unions just about wrecked.

When I look at the the bad stuff that's happened I wouldn't want to go through it again but its opened up opportunities that wouldn't have come along otherwise. What you tell your employees about moving on I don't call that disrespect. If it's how you feel that fine. Some businesses are more inclined to keep employees long term in order to save training costs but it might take more coddling. Skilled trades pays higher wages and better wages than McDonalds for a reason. They don't want a %200 turnover. As far as teenage daughters thanks for your offer but I have one well on the way. Ya kids, now that's a whole new story altogether..
 

225

Active Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
27
Location
central,il.
In the Peoria Journal Star today they said Caterpillar is getting employee training paid for by the tax payers in North Carolina. CEO of Cat was complaining about high corp.taxes in USA, now he knows why. They also were protesting there real estate taxes in the Peoria area. It said in the paper they were pulling there protest.
 
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