milling_drum
Senior Member
The "Mr Gecko" reference is from a movie called "Wall Street"
Don't get me wrong I'm not a cat lover by any means, but they have survived without government bailouts
I think most people are looking at this, but not seeing what's really going on. This isn't a union issue, but a corporate greed issue.
Cat is closing the London factory, that's life, that's business, and that's unavoidable. It's unfortunate, and as much as I'd love to see it stay put, it's not going to happen. Does this make me upset? Not really, it's life, and it's business.
What does make me a bit upset, is the way Cat is doing it. They have employees, and the employees, by law, are entitled to severance if the plant closes. Now, if Cat out and out closes the plant, then they pay the severance, deal with the legal and financial issues with the different tax laws, and move on. That's what should happen. However, if they are shut down due to a labour dispute, they can effectively shut the plant down after a specified period of time....I think it's two years, and they don't have to pay all of the costs associated with closing the plant....tax issues, severance, etc, etc.
So, Cat puts out a lowball deal, to either cause a strike, or have excuse to lock them out, and they can sit on it, knowing they have their other plant up and running and able to cover the loco orders. Then, when the time period runs out, they announce the plant closure, and the ex-employees don't get the money they were owed. That's what makes the whole deal underhanded. This is how they are effectively screwing over the workers, by using these kind of tactics, not by cutting wages and benefits, or closing the plant.
Wage cuts and concessions are the way things are going right now, but using a loophole to ensure you don't have to pay your people the money you owe them, is just plain low.
It's not a union vs non union issue at all.....I work non union, and I make almost twice what they were making per hour, and have better benefits too.
...the next thing you and everyone else needs to remember is profits drove them into buying or putting up the plant your discussing right now in this thread and I'm sure cats decision to put it there originally wasn't hashed over and I'll also bet not many were complaining about cat at that time when hiring was done at that plant, so I'm not seeing why anyone should be crying in their beer cat wants to pay less now or reduce wages and compensation now. If your not agreeing with them all the workers can go together and buy the plant from cat and go into manufacturing themselves, I'm sure shortly the plant will be for sale anyhow at the rate this is going.
The hardest thing to accept is the following fact I'll toss out there, companies are not wanting to deal with "problem" plants, its a lot simpler to just close them and move onto an easier place to deal with, there are plenty of places around the world that would be excited to work for 15 bucks an hour and probably do a better job on top of it all, and appreciate the company being there, not complaining to anyone that will listen to them about how bad of a company they are how much too much money they make and how the workers are entitled to part of it or most of it and "need" to meet workers demands of higher wages and compensation. If you think that'll stop or slow down anytime soon I'm afraid your going to be sorrowfully mistaken, its only going to become a more common practice around the world. The next part of that statement is this, so unless you forgot it somewhere along the line I'll remind you of it now, workers and plants are "replaceable" yes that's right, your job can and will be replaced everyday, they do it on a small basis or a large basis and will continue to do that till the end of time and its not going to change anytime soon, any employee that causes them more grief than the work they do is going to be looking for a different job, and its not just cat, everyone does it, just because they are a larger company means nothing, you might think, since they are a larger traded company that you know what profits they make, since they are posted by law for traded companies, they should share that profit but small companies feel the same way. A worker is hired to do a job, they are paid to make them money and a lot of it in most cases and when they no longer make them money they'll be replaced, or when they cause more grief than they are worth they'll also be replaced, now when an entire plant causes the company more grief than its worth, its called a plant closing and relocation of the plant elsewhere.
What your talking in this thread is employee vs. management, its not a union deal at all, but more of an employee thing and yes everything changes in life and if things were done a certain way even 10 years ago, things do change and companies are tired of constantly having to negotiate wages and workers compensation or face a strike or plant shut down or production delays or anything like that, times are changing and so will negotiating by workers. In case you've been asleep the last few decades and didn't pay attention to whats going on, I"ll shed some light on this for you, 35 bucks an hour is in the past for workers in your plant, they are offering 15 bucks an hour and benefits are being cut, I'd think maybe instead of bashing them everywhere look for a different job, its not going to long and the plant will be shut anyhow, they are tired of dealing with you and already have a backup plan when workers won't take less, worldwide, people will view this as follows, workers in canada won't accept the wages and benefits offered and the plant was relocated to a place where workers were not only wiling but excited to work for the wages offered. What does this mean to you, the world will view you as unwilling to work for a fair wage, and also your advertising to other companies what will happen to them if they attempt to put a plant in your area and how you treat them once they are there, if you don't believe me keep it up and pay attention to what happens in the near and distant future. I"m not sure how long the plant was there or what wages were when the plant opened along with benefits and really don't care, but I'm guessing thats soon to be in the past as the plant moves elsewhere and frankly don't blame them one bit, I"m surprised they were there as long as they were, labor might be strong and mighty and for some things have valid points, but in the newer safer standards set by the governments in most countries, there's little need to negotiate with labor anymore, they are and always have been replaceable, whats happening now is more of a global thing verses a isolated thing like firing troublemakers within a work shift or within a plant. Now if anyone was asleep in the past cat also fired or laid off white collar jobs lately, not just plant workers, but the next level up as well, so nobody is immune to worker layoff, its getting to be more of a job performance thing and we'll see it more as time goes by.
Why did the economic crisis happen?
Now as for cat and their dealings, either you have never had to wonder where tomorrows lunch came from ever in life or had to actually go out and compete in the market place for much of anything, but cat's done nothing wrong, they had a plant making a product they bought, the entire thing, lock stock and barrel, if they wanted to expand it and add 200,000 workers at the existing facility its their right to do so, if they want to move it elsewhere, they certainly can do that as well, if the plant was for sale and the employee's didn't want to buy it, then I can't feel sorry one bit for them, if they wanted to but were outbid on the deal, then for maybe a minute I'd feel sorry for them because they lost, if they never attempted to buy which it sounds llike they didn't, then why the complaining now and bad mouthing cat, any company that would have bought it would do the same thing.
I understand you feel you have great company and people and a wonderful location etc, etc, etc. but its business and once the company is bought, its theirs to do with as they wish, to them it was a problem plant, if you choose to not accept that, so be it, others can and will see it for what it is, they either had wage issues, government issues, transportation issues, or just plain in the past had prior owner issues and had an grudge to bear, whatever, they had a problem with the plant and its employee's, and its how the world will view it as well weather you like it or not or will ever accept it, thats your problem.
If any other company would have bought it, things would be going about the same, these companies deal globally, and what that equates to you and your plant is this, you now will compete on a global market, if wages are about 15-20 dollars globally without benefits, then so be it, if your not willing to take it someone out there is, is it fair to you ................. no, but its what you should have seen coming when cat or anyone else was dealing on the plant, they owe it to "their" company to get the best deal possible, remember, the plant wasn't given to them they paid top dollar for it, and if they chose to eliminate competition by buying it and closing it, they can do so because they now own it, no different than your own house or vehicle, if you choose to neglect them and not take care of them its "your" right to be able to do that or if you want to spend endlessly on either you can do that as well, it comes with ownership and thats why companies buy plants, equipment, patents, or anything else is to control them and what they are legally able to do with them. As for being underhanded and sleezy about handling it, that might be your view, but most out there will disagree with you, first off, why are you mad at cat? because they stopped your gravey train and easy life? why not be upset with the sellers, they in essense sold you all out for the biggest buck?? They didn't offer it to the employee's to buy or set it up so they employee's could buy it, they never explained what they knew was coming for you and your frieinds, they in essence were the sleezy underhanded ones you should be mad at, not cat and thats how everyone else outside your world will view it weather you can see that or accept that, its true. They could have sold it in "your" best interst but chose not to, they could have some of these things in the contract when it was sold but chose not to, it would hurt their sales of their plant and they knew it, so whats the beef with cat about? Either you''ve been fed some line of bull by them or the employee's are about as ignorant as they come as far as knowing anything about business today in the real world, I'm not sure which, but if you were led to believe life was going to not only continue the same or get better, which is what I'm sure was fed to you by the late owners, you were gullable to believe it, so where is it cats fault? Did they come in and guarantee everyone there to not only keep their job but receive a pay raise and put that in writing? They may have come to speak and what they said may have sounded good but did they sit you down to have a one on one guarantee.................... no because your expendable and replaceable in the world wide market of business....................... is this sinking in anytime soon, if not in the upcoming years it might, but doubtfull, because after all, your skilled labor and no one can replace you right? You spent years to train and have a house payment to make and kids to raise and hopes and dreams of a life you once lived, yea, your the only one who has those, so your special and irreplaceable. If this offends you so be it, I have the tendance to tell it like it is, and as for ever working for me, its not going to happen, you can't seem to grasp your place in llife and only those that can will work for me, they are not special either, neither am I, nor my business, we are all replaceable and need to compete for our livelihood and those that work for me understand this and can cope, its got nothing to do with moral or anything else, they are workers who do a good job and perform that job to high standards or they know they will be replaced, they are a valuable asset to me and my company and are told that, but also know if they slip anywhere they will be replaced, if that makes me a bad boss, so be it, at least I never told them life would continue like it is or get better if I were to selll out my business to someone, anyone else, because I know its not true, thats what my employee's get, the truth, so look for work elsewhere, we have no jobs for you here.
As for cat being underhanded and sleezy, we'll wait to hear what charges they are up on and face, I'm sure it'll be in the papers everywhere, until then I'm thinking they are within the law, now nowhere have I seen whats become of the late owners? well we'll really never know anything of actually what caused the sale, only what the workers were told, but from past history, they might have been told the "whole" truth so why believe them now after the fact as to why they didn't keep the plant and keep making the billons each year the workers obviously made them every year, I'm sure it was so profitable of a plant the banks in canada couldn't handle all the deposits from the profit every year and thats why it was sold to the highest bidder for the most dollars, it had nothing to do with greed or a need for the almighty buck, thank god your prior owners were ammune from that problem and they did it in the interst of their loyal employee's who gave them so much over the years they felt they needed to give back to them at the end, yea its cats fault, keep dreaming.
Is that a Canadian Law Abscraperguy? That CAT would be required to pay severance if the plant closes? I know that if the company I worked for went belly up or decided to move to a different state or even a different country I wouldn't expect a severance package, nor would they be required to give me one.
Theres a few issues with the province of Ontario that may have caused CAT to make these actions, I would never defend corporate procedures to any degree but it is what it is....Canada is a much different animal than America in many respects.
I had a friend that worked at the Brampton plant spray painting new equipment back in the 80's, his hourly was close to $30. That was a staggering amount of money per hour back then and I do not think the rates went up much over the years to match inflation there in Ontario.