Cat 3116 swap , cummins 290 ?

[crane operator]

I think that's what the trans. is Rzucker, I'll look at it tomorrow.

 

[RZucker]

I think that's what the trans. is Rzucker, I'll look at it tomorrow.

I'm also betting it has a solenoid valve on the left side just above the shifter arm. External/Manual convertor lockup. The military used lockup to run winches without having to rev the engine up, It also works as a hold back on steep grades.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I like the idea of a 3000 series a lot better than the 6xx but if the deal is good, you should probably take it. The 3000 series is still a current product more or less while the 6xx is getting pretty old.

I'm told he shift points are adjustable by rotating a ramp thingy behind each valve body spring, but they may be just fine for the engine you have depending on RPM.

 

[RZucker]

I like the idea of a 3000 series a lot better than the 6xx but if the deal is good, you should probably take it. The 3000 series is still a current product more or less while the 6xx is getting pretty old.

I'm told he shift points are adjustable by rotating a ramp thingy behind each valve body spring, but they may be just fine for the engine you have depending on RPM.

That 654 will probably last forever in the OP's application. I worked on a fleet of trucks that ran around 80,000 gross with 300 HP turbo 6-71's, hardly ever a transmission issue, Snaffled up 4-5 milsurp transmissions as spares.
Crane Op's trans came off the back of an 8.3 Cummins so it really shouldn't need any adjustment. But yes, You can adjust shift points with the ramp rings, you can also change the flyweight governors. The parts manual gives a detailed combination of parts for various engine rpm ranges IIRC.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I just remember all the Allisons I used to drive, when we'd get a new truck the transmission would be very well set up. Sometimes the shift logic would give you a weird feeling being used to a car but if you thought about it, you could see the logic, why they held it in lower gears longer, kind of let the engine rev out when at WOT, or not immediately upshifitng on throttle release, lots of little nuances that made it operate more effectively.

Then we got another new truck, and the Allison programming stunk. It was something like a 2000 RPM program on a 2200 RPM engine and it was bogging all the time. Eventually we got an Allison engineering/service guy out there with a laptop and he re-did pretty much everything and after that it was great. Until the ECM had a problem and when they did the repair the shop changed it to "garbage truck" program where every time you lifted the throttle with the Jake switch on it went for 2nd gear. [I wanted to coast down this hill not come to a complete stop!] I left that job before we resolved the issue, the engineering guy was always busy and came from a long way off.

So like everything, it seems in these new days, the hardware is pretty good but the service people don't know what they are working with any more, and the one smart guy is always too busy to get to you.

Anyway I just told that story because just because it is an 8.3, the rev ranges might be a little different and the shift speeds might need adjustment to make it operate the way it should.

 

[RZucker]

I just remember all the Allisons I used to drive, when we'd get a new truck the transmission would be very well set up. Sometimes the shift logic would give you a weird feeling being used to a car but if you thought about it, you could see the logic, why they held it in lower gears longer, kind of let the engine rev out when at WOT, or not immediately upshifitng on throttle release, lots of little nuances that made it operate more effectively.

Then we got another new truck, and the Allison programming stunk. It was something like a 2000 RPM program on a 2200 RPM engine and it was bogging all the time. Eventually we got an Allison engineering/service guy out there with a laptop and he re-did pretty much everything and after that it was great. Until the ECM had a problem and when they did the repair the shop changed it to "garbage truck" program where every time you lifted the throttle with the Jake switch on it went for 2nd gear. [I wanted to coast down this hill not come to a complete stop!] I left that job before we resolved the issue, the engineering guy was always busy and came from a long way off.

So like everything, it seems in these new days, the hardware is pretty good but the service people don't know what they are working with any more, and the one smart guy is always too busy to get to you.

Anyway I just told that story because just because it is an 8.3, the rev ranges might be a little different and the shift speeds might need adjustment to make it operate the way it should.

I gotta say I would rather go mechanical and not have to worry about a circuit board to get me down the road. That's just me.

 

[sawzall5150]

You are just the guy I need to talk to. I have put the Allison on ebay and decided to also go with a roadranger. Biggest holdup is I don't know anything about bellhousing fit up and such. I found a Roadranger guru at Inland Truck Parts in Springfield but he's on vacation this week, I'm sure he can answer any Roadranger questions but my concern is what bellhousing to look for that will work on the 8.3 and fit a 10 or 13 speed? Also will my starter still work? Chances are, when I find a transmission it may even have the correct bellhousing, clutch, etc.

 

[sawzall5150]

I forgot to tell you, the motor is a '96 and I guess that's the last of the mechanical motors. Hard to believe it only has 66.000 miles. Clean enough to eat off of. I also need to come up with engine fan, pulleys, good diagram. It was belly mount in the firetruck and the fan is bolted directly to the harmonic balancer.

 

[crane operator]

I have two different transmissions behind 8.3's One big box 9513 and a small box 613. Either will handle the torque of a 8.3. The engine flywheel housing/adaptor is mostly determined by two things, transmission and starter location. The standard transmissions use a shallower flywheel adaptor than the allisons use. You will have to figure out what you need for a flywheel and clutch- are you going push style clutch or pull? That's probably going to depend on what you find for a donor.

Most trucks in this size don't run a 10 or 13 speed, they just have a 6 speed spicer etc. You probably aren't going to be hauling heavy are you? I'm powering a 50,000lb crane with them, but you're probably just using it like a pickup aren't you? The road rangers will be big, heavy and noisy. And you really don't need all those gears. What's your rear ratio?

You're more than welcome to come look at the 8.3's in the crane's, but really its not going to show you much- or have much relevance to putting it in a topkick. The 8.3 probably isn't much bigger than the cat that is in it, so I don't think you will have room issues.

Central engine core in springfield, and there's another engine yard in ozark, they will be your best source for finding a flywheel housing and the engine accesories that you need. Be prepared for a lot of dinking around finding and making stuff, and with no vin for what you are doing, you're going to have to just figure out what you need, there's no manual step by step on how to do it.

 

[RZucker]

You are just the guy I need to talk to. I have put the Allison on ebay and decided to also go with a roadranger. Biggest holdup is I don't know anything about bellhousing fit up and such. I found a Roadranger guru at Inland Truck Parts in Springfield but he's on vacation this week, I'm sure he can answer any Roadranger questions but my concern is what bellhousing to look for that will work on the 8.3 and fit a 10 or 13 speed? Also will my starter still work? Chances are, when I find a transmission it may even have the correct bellhousing, clutch, etc.

When I mentioned Mechanical, I was referring to the 600 series Allison that Crane OP has. Putting a RoadRanger in combination with the engine swap may be a good sized headache. But hey... Anything is possible.
I like the Allison mechanical idea because there is no fixed linkage geometry to figure out by trial and error.

 

[crane operator]

When I mentioned Mechanical, I was referring to the 600 series Allison that Crane OP has. Putting a RoadRanger in combination with the engine swap may be a good sized headache. But hey... Anything is possible.
I like the Allison mechanical idea because there is no fixed linkage geometry to figure out by trial and error.

I think RZucker is giving great advice here- the allison mechanical would make things a lot simpler. No pedals and linkages to try to mount and come up with, no big holes to cut in the floor. If your wife/girlfriend/ mom, want to drive it a little, no teaching involved, just put it in D. When making a swap, the more things you can keep the same, the easier it will be. And its time consuming enough the way it is.

Can you take the truck down for a extended period of time? Or are you hoping this is a 3 day project? When we repowered the 1st crane, it was 6 weeks from when it lost the 3208 until we went to a job with it again. The 2nd one we did in 5 days. After we knew everything we needed and every step. The first time, you end up doing something, then wait 3 days for another part, and then run into your next problem. On neither one did we work every day on it, just between crane work. But its not a 2 day in and out, back on the road thing.

 

[sawzall5150]

Ok, how about this. I have found a RTO 12513 roadranger and wondering if anyone can help me figure out mph in high gear if I use this transmission with the 8.3 Cummins. I am not sure what would be the desired cruising rpm would be for this motor but I have the specs from the engine tag. Keep in mind that this truck is one originally of those Topkick 6500 Monroe dually pickup conversions so it has the lower profile 19.5 tires and a high geared axle I suppose to make up for the short tires. Specs are:
Cummins C8.3 300 H.P.@2200rpm
axle ratio: 3.36
tire height: 32.5"
Final transmission gear ratio: 0.87:1

From what I can find on the internet somewhere between 1700 and 1800 rpm would be the "sweet spot. Thanks for any help or the formula so I can figure it myself

 

[sawzall5150]

Sorry Crane operator, just saw your last post. Yeah I've got all the time in the world to do this project. The Cat runs perfect, just slow and I'll deal with it as long as needed. My plan is to get everything together, transmission bolted to motor, linkages located, get a assortment of crossmembers, mounts, etc and hopefully this winter when it gets slow, pull the hood, radiator, motor and transmission. Then hang the new one in the hole, block it up into place and start fabbing mounts. I expect to run into some waiting for parts but the more complete I can get everything beforehand, the quicker it will go.

 

[crane operator]

This is the gear ratio calculator I like to use.

https://www.4lo.com/calc/gearratio.php

I came up with 69mph at 2100rpm

1800 rpm is 59mph

 

[Truck Shop]

#1 and #2 Bell?

Truck Shop

 

[sawzall5150]

Wow that's pretty slow. Afraid of that. Taller tires not an option as you can see in the picture that I made the bed wheel wells hug the tires pretty close. Plus, taller tires will put my gooseneck ball too high. Looks like a higher o.d. or taller gears. The calculator said 2.78 for 80 mph at 2000 rpm. Dang that's high. The Cat runs 2750 rpm's. I did go by that big core yard in Ozark and that guy is going to put together some options as well.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Some of the 13 speeds have a .73 OD ratio, see here: http://www.roadranger.com/rr/ProductsServices/ProductsbyCategory/Transmissions/PCT_486870

That would put your RPM right where you want it.

 

[sawzall5150]

Ok so I've been doing my research and using the gear calculator. Yes some 13 speeds RTO, RTLO, RTX have .73 ratio but most are .87. Either way is still way too slow top end. I found that Eaton has a synchronized 850-1100 ft pound torque 6 speed with first being granny slow and 6th is .78. [Eaton FSO 6406] That gives a cruise speed at 1800 rpm of 66 mph. The only way I can see to reach that 80 mph 1800 rpm cruise speed is to drop a auxiliary behind the main transmission. I've located a few medium duty's but have not had time to go get the model numbers to find out what they are for sure. Most I've done research on are .80-.83. The .83 auxillary behind a .78 main, such as the Eaton or similar will put it at 80.5 mph at 1800 rpm. I think a auxillary behind a roadranger would be cool but way overkill but may be cheaper than the 6 speed because of availability. Do you think all this overdrive is too much on the rear end? If this truck ever sees 48,000# I would be surprised. Typically 24-36,000#. I guess if I was heavy I could avoid the "big" gear and save it for skating back home. Does anyone know of plentifully available overdrive 6 speeds similar to the eaton above?

 

[crane operator]

I would raise the bed on some riser blocks, and put taller rubber back there, and/ or switch rear end 3rd member, actually I would probably would do both, before I put in a aux.

I guess I missed where your are carrying 24-36,000 lbs. Are you pulling a trailer with equipment or what?

I still think you would be better to go allison and stay automatic, (just to save the weight/ noise/ size of a roadranger and all the changing of stuff around on the truck) and change your rear and tire size to get some of the speed you want.

I think trying to get one of those topkicks to 80mph is foolishness, but that's just me. Empty its going to bounce around like a bobtail, and I guess I'm not much for towing at 80 either, but that's just me.

 

[sawzall5150]

Yeah I've got a triple axle gooseneck and move a lot of equipment around Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas. Not a lot of weight usually but bulky. I usually limit the load around 16-18,000# and hire a real truck above that. I've got a couple F350's and they handle it and pull good enough but you've got to stop it also. The topkick has WAY more braking capacity and just generally handles the weight much much better. The reason for the speed is that it takes a long time to get home from south Texas at 69 mph, especially when the speed limit is 80 and everybody is passing me at 85. It's smooth as silk at it's current speed of 73mph [downhill, empty with no trailer]. If it could hold the 73 loaded I'd leave it alone but it falls on it's face pretty bad. I'm loosing almost 1000 rpm going from the Cat to the Cummins and that's why the speed difference between the 2 engines. Plus, let's not forget that there's also a pretty big "hobby" factor going on here and it's a really good looking truck, kinda rare. The newer ones are all over the place but you hardly ever see one of these.