case sv185 huge dissapointment

[durallymax]

durallymax, do you know what it will cost per hour to trade bi-annual? I had posted this question while back and got no response. We dairy to and I really think that will be the cheapest cost of ownership. Just curious what you think it will cost per hour. sorry this doesn't really pertain to this thread.

I do not have a figure on that yet. Will known more when the time comes, have another year to go yet, they turn 1 year old in april.

 

[JCBiron]

Thought I would chime in here with an update.....our customer, after having his larger lift cylinders put on, is still very unhappy with the SV185, so much so that he is asking (not quite demanding....yet) that we take it back and give him something else. My main reason for posting this is to ask a question, to you guys, as owners/operators: If this machine is, in fact, performing to the best of its engineered ability, and there is nothing "wrong" with the machine, at what length do you think the dealer should go before placing the responsibility on the OEM (in this instance, Case) to come in and remedy the situation with the customer? Is it acceptable to ask the customer to pay for the hours used on the machine? (sorry, didn't mean to hi-jack the thread)

 

[aussie bobcat]

Thought I would chime in here with an update.....our customer, after having his larger lift cylinders put on, is still very unhappy with the SV185, so much so that he is asking (not quite demanding....yet) that we take it back and give him something else. My main reason for posting this is to ask a question, to you guys, as owners/operators: If this machine is, in fact, performing to the best of its engineered ability, and there is nothing "wrong" with the machine, at what length do you think the dealer should go before placing the responsibility on the OEM (in this instance, Case) to come in and remedy the situation with the customer? Is it acceptable to ask the customer to pay for the hours used on the machine? (sorry, didn't mean to hi-jack the thread)

i have been asking for either case or the dealer to buy my unit back since i first got it new and discovered how pathetic it is i have been reasonable about it and am asking for 40k for it which is i feel i more then fair when i paid nearly 50k for it
the point i find dissapointing is all my multiple attempts to speak directly to case or for them to call me go ignored the machine has been a major dissapointment all i want to do is get rid of it and move onto something else so i can get back to making money
the unit can be dangerous to use with the eh controls in some situations there is no precise control yeasterday i had the mispleasure of having to use it to drill precision footing holes it is frustrating and bloody near impossible to get the auger to locate precisely when you want to edge forward a quarter of an inch when it will jump forward or back 2 inches at a time

 

[aussie bobcat]

Thought I would chime in here with an update.....our customer, after having his larger lift cylinders put on, is still very unhappy with the SV185, so much so that he is asking (not quite demanding....yet) that we take it back and give him something else. My main reason for posting this is to ask a question, to you guys, as owners/operators: If this machine is, in fact, performing to the best of its engineered ability, and there is nothing "wrong" with the machine, at what length do you think the dealer should go before placing the responsibility on the OEM (in this instance, Case) to come in and remedy the situation with the customer? Is it acceptable to ask the customer to pay for the hours used on the machine? (sorry, didn't mean to hi-jack the thread)

it is the end user that pays for the machine to do the job he wants manufacturers have a responsibility to look after a customer if the unit wont perform or work right and hopefully if enough people and end users complain loudly enough make steps to rectify major design flaws
it seems some people on this forum are suprised and perhaps dont belive my comments regarding my unit and experience with case however this is the situation and i am simply telling my experience

 

[aussie bobcat]

Aussie, Please tell me what your settings are set at ,at this time.

hi danny current settings are drive med 2 lift med 1 tilt med 1 control sub menu drv 3 loader 1
as stated earlier ALL POSSIBLE COMBINATIONS have been tried both by myself other operators and also case mechanics plus as stated earlier all the latest updates are installed

 

[aussie bobcat]

Can you really say it is easy to work on the engine on a new vertical lift CNH machine? I am not playing brand favorites or haters but I honestly do not see how anyone in their right mind could think that they are easier to work on for every task than a Cat, JCB, Bobcat or Deere. I am not talking regular oil changes. I mean starters, alternators, belts, etc. Things that do wear out. I remember looking at the starter and alternator on our L220 and shaking my head. Maybe I am missing something, maybe you are not as brand nuetral as I thought, or maybe you don;t have to fix your machines, but that is the one thing I do not understand.


Your right, I consider ease of maintaince to be changing of filters, oil changes. I dont look at changing starters, or alternators or belts. I keep my machines to about 1800-3000 hours depending on the machine and the work load. The number of starters replaced is zero, alternators zero, belts zero. Skid Steers no matter what color are not easy to work on. Ease of day to day fluid checks and greasing is very important. Replacing these components and turbos and so forth, I dont worry about and my experience over almost 20 years of running these things has shown its not something I need to concern myself with.

The cab issue, to each their own. They can change from machine to machine. Maybe the A/C machines got a better cab. Maybe the EH machines were quieter. I dk. Agreed

Do you have a new wheeled machine? If so which one. No my wheeled machine is a CASE 465

You seem to miss the concept of poor service. Re read my experience. With any company there will be bad service areas. One time it will be Cat, the next time Bobcat, the next time CNH. It's the way life goes. Sometimes it is so hard to try and fight and go above the dealer that it isn't worth it. That is why i stopped at the level I stopped at with Agco. It put the dealer in a hard spot and put our future with Agco in jeopardy.

I am not disagreeing that good service is can be subjective and inconsistant. I just dont see CASE sitting on their hands if their machines have problem. I am not saying they are perfect, far from it, but if their machines have engineering defects, my experience and my exposure to these guys is that they will fix it. As far as going above the dealer, yea I would if I needed to, but my dealer does a great job of going to bat for me. However I have no problem going above them and finding my own solutions to problems if thats what needs to be done. I am in business to make money. I buy the equipment that I think offers me the chance of being successful. If the equipment is defective or does not produce as it should, I will work a solution that is in my best interest.


Ever hear the saying dont bite the hand that feeds you. The more you complain up the chain of command, the worse your life will be afterwards. Unless they fire the area rep, you will be stuck with one pissed off area rep that will not want to help you with any of your warranty claims, or issues outside of warranty. Personal feelings on their part should not contribute to the machines service, but in the real world that is not how it works. Then you have to go above them again. Do you know how easy it is to get ahold of people above the rep. Its not. I "aquired" a list of the contacts above him which are not available to the public. They do not answer their phones nor do they return phone calls. I am not saying every company is this way every time, but you need to understand we do not all live in the glory filled world you do. Given the number of machines you have I am sure they like you much better than m,any others as well. Many places treat bigger operators much better.

I dont see it like this. I am not that big of operation, I purchased a number of machines but I have been doing this for almost 2 decades. I work hard for my dealer, and I expect them to do the same. I help out the salesman, I have lent them back my machines to do customer demos with, if they dont have a certain machine that a customer wants to demo. I give them leads on guys I know that wanting to add or replace equipment and so on. I have worked with CASE on making improvements and offer suggestions to improve their product. They have included me in customer clinics at the factory and proving grounds. If I have a problem I expect it to be taken care of. Its a two way street, I help them and they help me and the day my dealer or CASE fails to recognize that or live up to that is the day I run a different color. So far its working well.
hi ksss itnseems in your situation both the dealer and case have been good to you however my experience has been far different maybe it is because you are in the us and i am in australia i dont know all i can say is my experience is vey dissapointing
i notice also that you buy sevral units at a time and have been doing so for many years also that you are included at factory clinics and proving trials at the proving grounds i would say this puts you high up on the list to get looked after by case and your dealer
i have been to the states twice over the last 20 years plus i spent 6 months working in northern alberta canada in 1993 and can say that there is a stronger emphasis on customer service over there in the usa and canada then here i feel
it is great that you have such a good relationship with case and your dealer i can only say that trying to deal with case over here goes nowhere they do not even give you the decency of a response just refer all your communication back to dealer i wish you could see my side
thanks for your comments

Sometimes it is not worth it and you have to suck it up and get a different machine.

That should the absolute last resort.

hi kss you claim you are a small operation yetpurchase several units at a time and have done so for many years you get invited to factory clinics and to trials at the proving groungs that puts you well up on the list to get looked after if yo have a issue
i wish you could eperience it from my side case will not even return a email or call they just refer back to my dealer which is pathetic
in your situation you get looked after very well and have done so for a long time in my case it is completely different look at it from my side perhaps you might know someone in case who can kick butt and sort this out instaed of them ignoring it hoping it will go away
thanks for your comments

 

[Danny Steel]

Maybe this is your first machine with E/H controls?
I found at first my machine (tr-270 was agresive, I think the controls should be about the same as on your machine.
I havent got too many hrs on my Case just yet, but I,m sure getting the hang of the new E/H controls, You maybe hanging on to the controls too tight, thats what I was doing, so I eased off from the grip and so far so good!
I hope you get things worked out, but It could be just a learning curve.

 

[aussie bobcat]

Maybe this is your first machine with E/H controls?
I found at first my machine (tr-270 was agresive, I think the controls should be about the same as on your machine.
I havent got too many hrs on my Case just yet, but I,m sure getting the hang of the new E/H controls, You maybe hanging on to the controls too tight, thats what I was doing, so I eased off from the grip and so far so good!
I hope you get things worked out, but It could be just a learning curve.

danny as stated in earlier quotes both myself and the operators that have used this machine all have plenty of experience myself at least 15000 hrs on skid steers of that at least a cople of thousand with both eh and pilot another operstor around 5000 hrs on eh controls everyone that has tried to use it is highly experienced it is not just a matter of loosening my grip a skidsteer is expected to do precise work and my other units if i want to move a precise amount eg locating a auger or detail excavation especially aroung assets i expect machine to be able to do it if want to sneak forward 4 or 5 mm i expect it to do it not jump forward 50 mm or 2 inches like our unit
thanks

 

[KSSS]

hi kss you claim you are a small operation yetpurchase several units at a time and have done so for many years you get invited to factory clinics and to trials at the proving groungs that puts you well up on the list to get looked after if yo have a issue
i wish you could eperience it from my side case will not even return a email or call they just refer back to my dealer which is pathetic
in your situation you get looked after very well and have done so for a long time in my case it is completely different look at it from my side perhaps you might know someone in case who can kick butt and sort this out instaed of them ignoring it hoping it will go away
thanks for your comments

Your overstating my importance and my buying power, but never the less. Your dealer needs to go to work for you. You should have a regional CASE representative who's job it is to handle situations like this. You need to get a meeting with that person with your dealer representative being present (which I am sure they would anyway). Your dealer needs to facilitate that meeting and you need to push your dealer to get it done (which is unfortunate). Your dealer does not have luxury of sitting on their hands and saying there is nothing they can do. CASE has an obiligation (in my view) to look into this and contact you through the dealer (assuming that they haven't). They are not going to work outside of your dealer on the issue you can be assured of that. JCBiron can correct me if I am wrong.

 

[KSSS]

Thought I would chime in here with an update.....our customer, after having his larger lift cylinders put on, is still very unhappy with the SV185, so much so that he is asking (not quite demanding....yet) that we take it back and give him something else. My main reason for posting this is to ask a question, to you guys, as owners/operators: If this machine is, in fact, performing to the best of its engineered ability, and there is nothing "wrong" with the machine, at what length do you think the dealer should go before placing the responsibility on the OEM (in this instance, Case) to come in and remedy the situation with the customer? Is it acceptable to ask the customer to pay for the hours used on the machine? (sorry, didn't mean to hi-jack the thread)

I had a new 85XT that I bought in 99 and it was a POS. CASE, my dealer and I worked an arrangement to get me into a 95XT. I paid the depreciation on the hours I put on it. They worked the numbers on their end. I was happy with the deal and that is what is key, they kept a customer with that deal. I have gone on to buy more machines, so it was a cost that CASE and my dealer have recouped many times over I am sure. However, the dealer obviously cant absorb the entire cost of these types of situations on their own, Case needs to step up and participate, after all they built it.

 

[aussie bobcat]

Your overstating my importance and my buying power, but never the less. Your dealer needs to go to work for you. You should have a regional CASE representative who's job it is to handle situations like this. You need to get a meeting with that person with your dealer representative being present (which I am sure they would anyway). Your dealer needs to facilitate that meeting and you need to push your dealer to get it done (which is unfortunate). Your dealer does not have luxury of sitting on their hands and saying there is nothing they can do. CASE has an obiligation (in my view) to look into this and contact you through the dealer (assuming that they haven't). They are not going to work outside of your dealer on the issue you can be assured of that. JCBiron can correct me if I am wrong.

i have made repeate drequests for case to contact me all i get is refered back to the dealer the dealer shares my frustration however everyone seems to be sitting on their hands with this i will say again because it seems my comments are going unheard i have repeatedly asked my dealer to get this sorted i have many times tried contacting case directly which then gets refered back to dealerso obviously case are awar of the problem so is my dealer yet afte 6 months on from purchase and a nearly 50k investment i have a machine THAT WILL NOT PERFORM AS I EXPECT IT TO YET THE NEW HOLLAND L175 IT REPLACED DID ALL OF THE TASKS WE REQUIRE THE CASE TO DO WITH NO PROBLEM
i will also say again that it appears over your side of the ocean you have far more support from all levels then we have here do you think i would be posting my experience if case were attending to the issue the response from case over here regarding this is dissapointing to say the least

 

[durallymax]

Thought I would chime in here with an update.....our customer, after having his larger lift cylinders put on, is still very unhappy with the SV185, so much so that he is asking (not quite demanding....yet) that we take it back and give him something else. My main reason for posting this is to ask a question, to you guys, as owners/operators: If this machine is, in fact, performing to the best of its engineered ability, and there is nothing "wrong" with the machine, at what length do you think the dealer should go before placing the responsibility on the OEM (in this instance, Case) to come in and remedy the situation with the customer? Is it acceptable to ask the customer to pay for the hours used on the machine? (sorry, didn't mean to hi-jack the thread)

It all depends on the issue. In this case, as aggravating as it is to the customer, it is somewhat the nature of the controls. Now if it is worse than any of the other SV185s and they can not get it to perform as well as another one they take to him, then I would say a deal should be worked to exchange one. As for the cost, it would depend on the case again. In this guys case it sounds like it has been prolonged and extremely aggravating. Then you need to meet his price closely. It doesn't sound like he put any hours on this machine and spent more hours dealing with it in the shop and trying to get ahold of people to make it work. In that case I would push CNH to help do an even swap. The depreciation costs that you and CNH absorb are compensation for the lost time and stress caused to the customer. Also makes you look good in the future. Now if it performs just like every other SV185 and the majority of people do not have issues. Then you have to re-evaluate the situation. It then becomes difficult to determine what is fair. The customer most likely will not be happy without a new machine for little cost, you on the other hand also have to protect yourself from loosing money over someone who may just have a personal preference issue with the machine. In that case I would offer them a price that helps to compensate you some for the depreciation hit on that machine.

In some case though, the machine is engineered wrong. We had this with a baler this summer. For whatever reason nobody could get it to feed properly to make bales. The design of it seemed backwards to many people, but after repeated tries and fighting all summer it never did work. There were other machines in the area that had similar issues and were sent back. In that case you better give them their old machine plus a refund, or offer to buy back the new unit at a price you can agree on. Probably not going to be the price paid, but that would depend on the aggravation. We wasted thousands on custom baling expenses due to the baler never performing. In addition to that there was some lost crop and potential due to it not being able to operate. Add in the personal time wasted, aggravation, and overall lack of help from the OEM and I would settle for nothing less than the paid price, which is exactly what we did. If they want to complain, give them the custom baling bill and give them the choices, Go to court for this bill (more to prove you need to get your ass in gear and fix these things versus actually getting the money), accept our offer right now, give us an even trade back for the old machine and never sell us another machine again. We said here is the deal, old machine back and a refund. If you complain we will start adding part of the custom bill into the refund demanded and you will loose all business. By that point, it went through. We wanted to do it earlier in the season but they insisted they could get it running. This is a dealer we buy $250,000 tractors from which may have helped.

 

[JCBiron]

Now if it performs just like every other SV185 and the majority of people do not have issues. Then you have to re-evaluate the situation. It then becomes difficult to determine what is fair. The customer most likely will not be happy without a new machine for little cost, you on the other hand also have to protect yourself from loosing money over someone who may just have a personal preference issue with the machine. In that case I would offer them a price that helps to compensate you some for the depreciation hit on that machine.

This is the problem I have right now in my situation.....the customer had a legitimate problem from the word go. Not only should his machine have had the larger cylinders on it, but it also had a relief valve not holding proper pressure, so it was really performing like a POS. We fixed the relief, and then installed the new cylinders, but to put it bluntly, I now think the guy just has a hard-on for this machine, even though the performance is much better than when we started. And now, the machine, in his eyes, isn't as responsive on the controls as his old machine (the SV is mechancial H pattern). I have tried to explain the difference in the way the linkage is made on the handles, but he thinks there is something wrong with the machine.

I ultimately want the customer to be satisfied with his purchase, but have I met my obligation as a dealer by making the machine perform to its full potential, with it now being in Case's hands to pony up and eat some of the cost if I have to take the machine back and/or trade him out of it? Again, just wondering what you guys think as consumers.

 

[robin yates uk]

This is the problem I have right now in my situation.....the customer had a legitimate problem from the word go. Not only should his machine have had the larger cylinders on it, but it also had a relief valve not holding proper pressure, so it was really performing like a POS. We fixed the relief, and then installed the new cylinders, but to put it bluntly, I now think the guy just has a hard-on for this machine, even though the performance is much better than when we started. And now, the machine, in his eyes, isn't as responsive on the controls as his old machine (the SV is mechancial H pattern). I have tried to explain the difference in the way the linkage is made on the handles, but he thinks there is something wrong with the machine.

I ultimately want the customer to be satisfied with his purchase, but have I met my obligation as a dealer by making the machine perform to its full potential, with it now being in Case's hands to pony up and eat some of the cost if I have to take the machine back and/or trade him out of it? Again, just wondering what you guys think as consumers.

an old saying comes to mind "the customer is always right ",,,,,,,,,,,he is unhappy and the best way in my opinion would be to releave him of this machine and replace with another, Better a happy customer than an angry ex customer

 

[Danny Steel]

Drilling holes that need to be right on the money is a good test for any type of controls,
Also if you run a string line for 100' and try to keep the bucket as close as possible without hitting the string
is another good test for controls.
Aussie, I think you said you tried another Case machine of the same and it did the same thing?
(no fine control)?
I would be back there and tell them to show you how they the dealer can put that auger point right on the nail, because you are right, skid steers are made to work with precision.
If all the 185 cases are like yours and no experienced operator can operate it that they feel is right and correct, they should take it back.
Is this dealer also a New Holland dealer?, if so a swap for your machine to the NH less the hrs that are on your machine for rental imo, would be fair.

 

[durallymax]

an old saying comes to mind "the customer is always right ",,,,,,,,,,,he is unhappy and the best way in my opinion would be to releave him of this machine and replace with another, Better a happy customer than an angry ex customer

You would loose your business if you let every customer walk all over you.

You cannot make every customer happy. Sometimes it is best to just tell them" I am sorry we cannot meet your needs and expectations anymore, I feel it is best we part ways at this time before more issues arise". Maybe offer them a buyback deal if they want to go to a different brand and then your headaches are gone.

 

[durallymax]

Drilling holes that need to be right on the money is a good test for any type of controls,
Also if you run a string line for 100' and try to keep the bucket as close as possible without hitting the string
is another good test for controls.
Aussie, I think you said you tried another Case machine of the same and it did the same thing?
(no fine control)?
I would be back there and tell them to show you how they the dealer can put that auger point right on the nail, because you are right, skid steers are made to work with precision.
If all the 185 cases are like yours and no experienced operator can operate it that they feel is right and correct, they should take it back.
Is this dealer also a New Holland dealer?, if so a swap for your machine to the NH less the hrs that are on your machine for rental imo, would be fair.

I will never say I like Cat's EH controls. Many days I still hate them, the only reason i tolerate them is due to how much nicer the rest of the machine is. However when drilling holes, I can hit the nail on the head without much effort. It takes some skill and patience to learn that the slower you operate EH controls, the faster they run though.

 

[aussie bobcat]

Drilling holes that need to be right on the money is a good test for any type of controls,
Also if you run a string line for 100' and try to keep the bucket as close as possible without hitting the string
is another good test for controls.
Aussie, I think you said you tried another Case machine of the same and it did the same thing?
(no fine control)?
I would be back there and tell them to show you how they the dealer can put that auger point right on the nail, because you are right, skid steers are made to work with precision.
If all the 185 cases are like yours and no experienced operator can operate it that they feel is right and correct, they should take it back.
Is this dealer also a New Holland dealer?, if so a swap for your machine to the NH less the hrs that are on your machine for rental imo, would be fair.

hi danny i have challenged the dealer to do precision work like stated but they also cant however this still has not helped get any response fron case unfortunately the dealer is just a case dealer and also new holland no longer make l160 170 or 175's they have the l218 220 etc they are virtunately identical to the case and have the same problems and design flaws

 

[aussie bobcat]

just wondering if anyone has any thoughts or comments on the new bobcat 500 series i believe the models are s550 and s570 we have nt seen them in australia yet but apparently they were released iin the us late last year thanks

 

[Danny Steel]

just wondering if anyone has any thoughts or comments on the new bobcat 500 series

I was wondering when you were going to ask about bobcats...Ok I'm gone fishen