case 580ck d188 slow cranking

[Delmer]

So there's only four possibilities I see with what you've said so far.

1. Weak starter. The fact that it is new, rebuilt, blessed by Case itself is irrelevant to whether it is good or not.
2. Weak battery. same.
3. Hydraulic, belt, or transmission drag on the engine.
4. Internal engine drag.

No metal debris in the filter suggests the engine is fine, water and empty oil filter is suspicious. You can turn the engine by hand to see the drag on the engine internally, but the hydraulic pump will usually turn fine slowly, so that won't help. Could remove the coupler to the hydraulic pump to try that, and remove/loosen belt to try that.

Given those are the only possibilities I see, swapping the battery is the easiest, trying a new starter is second easiest and most likely. Then other drag issues.

The engine quitting is a mostly unrelated fuel problem in my guess.

I'd look for a mahle/iskra/letrika gear reduction starter, or a cheaper import gear reduction starter if you can't find a mahle.

 

[Tinkerer]

I replaced the entire starting system. did you read the previous comments?

Yes, I did read all of your posts, John.
But when certain components are not mentioned specifically I tend to question what was replaced.
Sorry for my ignorance.

 

[John580CK]

So there's only four possibilities I see with what you've said so far.

1. Weak starter. The fact that it is new, rebuilt, blessed by Case itself is irrelevant to whether it is good or not.
2. Weak battery. same.
3. Hydraulic, belt, or transmission drag on the engine.
4. Internal engine drag.

No metal debris in the filter suggests the engine is fine, water and empty oil filter is suspicious. You can turn the engine by hand to see the drag on the engine internally, but the hydraulic pump will usually turn fine slowly, so that won't help. Could remove the coupler to the hydraulic pump to try that, and remove/loosen belt to try that.

Given those are the only possibilities I see, swapping the battery is the easiest, trying a new starter is second easiest and most likely. Then other drag issues.

The engine quitting is a mostly unrelated fuel problem in my guess.

I'd look for a mahle/iskra/letrika gear reduction starter, or a cheaper import gear reduction starter if you can't find a mahle.

do you have any info on where to get those starter? I asked the starter place about it and they said $400 plus shipping which is why I decided to have them rebuild it.I don't mind spending the money just trying to figure out what all needs to be done here before I start dropping loads of cash into it...thx again

 

[John580CK]

Yes, I did read all of your posts, John.
But when certain components are not mentioned specifically I tend to question what was replaced.
Sorry for my ignorance.

no problem. just said that because I mentioned it in first post on thread and several others...thank you for trying to help

 

[Tinkerer]

Do you have the service manual for your 580CK ?

 

[John580CK]

well. I gave it a small shot starting fluid and it fired up,ran great for 10 minutes or so until I shut it off. Had good power,operated all hydraulics. when I tried to start it after that it cranked slow and would not restart. does anyone have a link to the gear reduction starter?

 

[John580CK]

Do you have the service manual for your 580CK ?

yes

 

[Tinkerer]

Good, I was going to offer you a download to mine.

 

[John580CK]

Good, I was going to offer you a download to mine.

I paid like $60 for an online download a couple weeks ago. wish I had real book but thank you very much for offering

 

[Delmer]

I searched case 580ck starter and the first result is an amazon/rare electric for $180, that says DD for direct drive, but the pic is obviously an offset gear reduction starter. You can double check dbelectric for their specs. I couldn't find anything in the Letrika catalog, only alternators for the 580ck so you might be stuck with chinese.

 

[John580CK]

I searched case 580ck starter and the first result is an amazon/rare electric for $180, that says DD for direct drive, but the pic is obviously an offset gear reduction starter. You can double check dbelectric for their specs. I couldn't find anything in the Letrika catalog, only alternators for the 580ck so you might be stuck with chinese.

that's why I haven't ordered it yet, never know what you're going to get. been searching for quite a while today trying to make sure I'm getting the right one. sometimes they use generic pics

 

[edgephoto]

voltage drop at batt and starter are the same, 9.5 after 10 seconds of cranking

You have a 9.5 volt drop from the battery to the starter? or do you mean your voltage across the battery terminals is 9.5 volts when cranking? Big difference.

If it is the latter your battery is weak. Replace that before wasting anymore time.

 

[John580CK]

You have a 9.5 volt drop from the battery to the starter? or do you mean your voltage across the battery terminals is 9.5 volts when cranking? Big difference.

If it is the latter your battery is weak. Replace that before wasting anymore time.

it's 9.5 at both while cranking meaning there is no voltage drop through cables. case says min of 9

 

[Vetech63]

Make sure you have a ground strap from the machine frame to the starter mount flange. I have seen them removed or left unhooked numerous times.

 

[Birdseye]

On my 580se, the cause of slow cranking turned out to be worn brushes in the starter motor. Once I cleaned up the armature with a bit of fine sand paper, cleaned the grooves between the contacts, freed up the brushes so that they moved up/down ..... the starter spun the engine much better . That lasted about 6 months then the starter degraded to the point where it wouldnt move the engine at all. So, I the ordered a new set of brushes and soldered them in and that made the biggest improvement of all. Its fairly easy to remove the starter and open the end to inspect the brushes. Its not so easy to solder in new brushes if you dont have the mini-torch and right solder etc, but you can buy a new starter. This may be the culprit , it was for me .

 

[John580CK]

Make sure you have a ground strap from the machine frame to the starter mount flange. I have seen them removed or left unhooked numerous times.

it has a ground cable from battery directly to starter like I mentioned

 

[John580CK]

On my 580se, the cause of slow cranking turned out to be worn brushes in the starter motor. Once I cleaned up the armature with a bit of fine sand paper, cleaned the grooves between the contacts, freed up the brushes so that they moved up/down ..... the starter spun the engine much better . That lasted about 6 months then the starter degraded to the point where it wouldnt move the engine at all. So, I the ordered a new set of brushes and soldered them in and that made the biggest improvement of all. Its fairly easy to remove the starter and open the end to inspect the brushes. Its not so easy to solder in new brushes if you dont have the mini-torch and right solder etc, but you can buy a new starter. This may be the culprit , it was for me .

all of that stuff was just replaced at starter rebuild shop

 

[Birdseye]

Sounds like several issues:

1. slow cranking due to starter and/or wiring, battery

2. Fuel starvation or air in fuel system

Is the Fuel petcock on tank fully open?

Are you 200% sure there is no air anywhere in the fuel path? Go back as far to the tank as you can, open each connection, ensure a good flow of fuel and no air, make sure all high pressure connections ‘spit’ not just seep fuel.

Make a list of everything that has changed since it was last running and question all your assumptions about what’s working, double check everything and if possible verify thru a test each item in the above list.

Isolate and remove variables in your test process, for example hook up your jumper pack directly to the starter and a nearby ground bolt, any difference in crank speed ?

 

[John580CK]

Sounds like several issues:

1. slow cranking due to starter and/or wiring, battery

2. Fuel starvation or air in fuel system

Is the Fuel petcock on tank fully open?

Are you 200% sure there is no air anywhere in the fuel path? Go back as far to the tank as you can, open each connection, ensure a good flow of fuel and no air, make sure all high pressure connections ‘spit’ not just seep fuel.

Make a list of everything that has changed since it was last running and question all your assumptions about what’s working, double check everything and if possible verify thru a test each item in the above list.

Isolate and remove variables in your test process, for example hook up your jumper pack directly to the starter and a nearby ground bolt, any difference in crank speed ?

I have done everything you mentioned twice as stated in my previous comments. just put new ac delco 1150 ,700cca battery in today and still cranks slow. ran fine for 10 minutes yesterday until I shut it off so I'm pretty confident in my fuel system bleeding. diesels need to crank faster than this to start good

 

[Tinkerer]

Can you turn the motor by pushing or pulling on a fan blade ?
I'm thinking it may not be a starter problem.
More like something binding to prevent a decent speed when the starter is engaged.
Perhaps the hydraulic system is putting a load on the starter when cranking. When no other problem is found, I would uncouple the hydraulic pump from the crankshaft and then determine if that is where the problem is.
I know you said that isn't practical, but you may be glad you did if find that the splines on the pump are near failure. That spline is a common failure on all tractors with crankshaft driven pumps.