Case 580c Front Left Kingpin - Needle Bearing

[MD_Tractor_85]

Thank you Tinkerer

 

[Coytee]

Now another serious question has been raised: Do I try to force the pin out downward ... Toward the ground ? Or upward ?

1. I have no clue
2. I am certainly NO expert on any of this. I'd classify myself as more of the typical dunderhead backyard wannabe mechanic. So with that said...

I would probably think your situation would dictate this. I originally wailed on mine with a sledge (at the advice of someone who's opinion I trust.....sigh) That turned out to be a big mistake because I mushroomed the top and now there was no way it was going to go DOWN.....which means, now, my only choice is to cut the mushroom off or go vertical. In my case, I had pretty easy access so once we came up with the "A" frame to hold the jack, it ended up working fine.

Glancing at your picture and schematic, it looks like your steering knuckle fits "inside the ears" on the axle? So you have the axle piece both above and below with the knuckle taking up most of the middle? Mine was essentially the opposite. Mine was over/under verses "in between". Do you have access to cut the pin so you can extract the knuckle? Could you then put....what's it called... dang, getting old sucks lol.

A hydraulic "hockey puck" and put this in the center section to push the top one vertical and then the bottom one down?

It's right on the tip of my tongue (fingertips I suppose)..... power jack? No... well crud. Someone will likely know what I'm talking about. Looking at your schematic, if you have the "wings" above and below that hold the rod.... that might be on my list of thoughts. Of course, if you can rig something similar to what we did, you can do the whole thing instead of two pieces, but that knuckle might be in the way. I had clean access to the axle.

If the "A" frame can fit over your spindle, that might work for you too. I know I'm rambling a bit.... Looking at your schematic again, and knowing how my machine (the ENTIRE machine) had a violent shake when mine finally gave way, I know there is a LOT of pressure/tension in there. My entire axle held the Kingpin so I had something like eight inches of contact of the kingpin to the axle. You don't have that. If you put 20/30 tons of pressure, I wonder if you could bend/torque one of your mounting points. Bugger one of those up just a degree and I'd imagine you have compounded your issue because (using my experience) your new pin won't line up.

We tried drilling my Kingpin too. My friend had a magnetic drill with a bit that I saw go through 1/2" steel almost like butter.....but that steel (the stabilizer pad of my backhoe) wasn't hardened. The pin is.

I would still probably try that as part of my backplans. Though I'd only try that if I had already in fact, cut the pin twice so I could pull the knuckle out. Now I'd only have 2-3 inches to drill.

Another thought hits me... though I don't know if this could be genuinely "damaging" or just annoyingly damaging (as though that makes sense)

This is a question more for those who understand welding. So this is just throwing spagetti on the walls.

What might happen if you welded the pin to your knuckle. Fire machine up and now, use your hydraulics to add some torque to the pin via the weld. (I'm guessing the weld would snap)

We tried that on mine. Welded some steel to it as a lever. Attached that lever to a cheater pole.... big fail. Pulled out my neighbors tractor and chained it to his tractor. Snapped the lever off the pin.

In my case, I had a good 2-3 inches of pin sticking out in the open and you don't have that. So just throwing ideas on the wall.

Good luck with this. I know how frustrated I got with mine.....but I don't generally get frustrated.... I get determined and focused. (my wife would tell you to a fault perhaps) I knew I'd get mine out, I just didn't know which solution would finally do it.....and kept at it.

You'll get it and when you do your smile is going to be so big, it will slap you into the upcoming week.

 

[Tinkerer]

Be sure to remove the TAPERED keeper pin from the king pin or the kingpin will never move.

 

[1693TA]

Be sure to remove the TAPERED keeper pin from the king pin or the kingpin will never move.

View attachment 253249

I've seen parts destroyed by somebody not knocking those out.

 

[Tinkerer]

I had to drill out a tapered pin one time. It was so dam tight and rusty that it couldn't be driven out.
The threaded end was broken off, then it swelled from beating on it with a punch and hammer.
Never Seize should always be used when reinstalling them.

 

[1693TA]

I had to drill out a tapered pin one time. It was so dam tight and rusty that it couldn't be driven out.
The threaded end was broken off, then it swelled from beating on it with a punch and hammer.
Never Seize should always be used when reinstalling them.

Yes, seldom do they come out easily when the nut is removed. I've drilled one or two myself. Stuck king pins themselves are another story also. I built a press with a 50ton cylinder for that job and when they finally let go, one needs to be clear of the area. Just because the spindle spins around the top and bottom of the pin doesn't mean it's not stuck in the axle beam severely.

 

[alrman]

Thought I'd better add to this conversation.
I have done more than a few of these repairs. The fact is that some come apart easier than others, but in saying that 580C's are getting older & if they have not been apart for a long time, chances are that you may have a battle on your hands.
I have only ever hit these pins downwards, reason being, in the field you are limited to what you can use - BIG hammer, pin punch with long handle & oxy + a heavy duty fabricated steel axle stand.

It's very important to place the edge of the stand (mine is 6"RHS with 3/8" end plates) as close as possible to the bottom side of the king pin - almost scraping it as it comes out.
Put the weight of the machine on it & raise the loader frame out of the way & lock it in place.
This minimalizes any flex while striking the king pin - You want all that force to to be delivered to the pin & not be lost by things bouncing around.
If the axle is not supported this way a large percentage of the hammer strike is lost.

The drift I use is slightly smaller in diameter than the king pin (around 1 3/4") & long enough to drive it through. A shorter pin maybe used to get things moving.
The pin is attached to a long handle & the hammer is 14lb.
Without saying, it's a two man job & the guy on the pin must hold it accurately in centre of the king pin & perfectly in line with it.
The guy on the hammer must be proficient in using that tool - full swing + full force. Sometimes a small sturdy platform to stand on is required, to make the strike point a comfortable spot. Perfect strikes will not move/shoot the pin away - if the pin is being shot one way & the other with each hit, a tight pin will never move, & risk of mushrooming becomes greater.
Either the pin holder or the hammer swinger has to raise their game.

Swinging a sledge hammer properly, I have always said is an art form - seeing it done accurately with full force, with an even flow of hits has always impressed me.

Prepare the machine & tools; Heat the back of the stub axle & don't be shy - get a dull glow on it - use the rosebud as it will heat faster; & quickly begin swinging before too much heat get transferred to the king pin. If the first attempt fails - best let things cool down again (naturally, NO WATER) & then try again later.

By all means give the king pin a few good hits before heating - you just never know your luck!

 

[Coytee]

Comment on using a sledge...

When I did mine, one thing I tried (in vain I might add.....I've got noodle arms lol)

Anyway, as I recall, I got a piece of PVC that was say, 8" long and had a smaller diameter iron rod that was say 10" long (both were shorter I just don't recall) Anyway, having the longer strike rod than the PVC allowed the PVC to hold it in place while I noodled on it with all my strength. (A year prior I had fallen and broken my Humerus which is the upper arm bone.... about 2-3 inches below the shoulder socket. It wasn't up to full strength....then about 2-years prior to that, I had on my OTHER arm, "frozen shoulder, "SLAP" tear and a torn rotator cuff.... so I'm not going to intimidate anyone with my "guns".

For me in my situation, using the sleeve to hold the drive pin, didn't work.

 

[MD_Tractor_85]

Update: With pictures. The pictures will show my situation. The king pin is 100% seized in the Spindle portion (dont know the name). Not the 2 holes of the axle. The entire spindle with seized king pin is free to move about inside those two axle holes.

Alrman - I appreciate your recommendations, though for now I am going to try to avoid hammering. If all else fails I will try hammering.
Tinkerer - I was able to get the 'keeper pin' out...fairly easy. Thanks for reminding me though.

I have also gone ahead and removed the wheel hub, disconnected the power steering ball joint linkage, and the tie rod linkage on the side with the king pin repair -- just getting things out of the way and isolating the issue.

I happen to have a manual log-splitter. I dont know the force on the bottle jack attached to it, but Im guessing its at least 12 Ton. Its already connected to a steel I-Beam, so might end working out in my favor. I am going to try and position the manual log splitter so that all of the force is directed on the pin, and while its being hydraulically pressed...I will take a torch to it. Distribute the torch and hope for the best. Basically an in-field version of a hydraulic press ( I don't have an actual shop hydraulic press.)

AND... I definitely plan on cutting the wedge point from the log splitter off, so that it is flat. It is obviously not safe in these pictures with the wedge on the splitter... I was just playing with what I had on had to see if it might work.

 

[MD_Tractor_85]

 

[MD_Tractor_85]

So again... Imagine that wedge on the log splitter removed so that it is flat, so the pin I am using as a driver 'punch' cannot slide off. And you see I now have everything else disconnected so the issue is isolated. I am hoping that the hydraulic bottle jack pressing on it... With some simultaneous heat distributed from an oxy-acetylene torch... Is enough to get it to budge. If not... I have no clue what I will have to try next. Definitely knee deep into this situation now.. Trying my best.
If anyone has anymore suggestions I am all ears and appreciative.
As you can see this attempt will be trying to drive the pin upwards... not downwards.. Unless any experts can tell me I should flip it and try to drive it downwards ?

 

[MD_Tractor_85]

I know someone might look at the hydraulic log splitter setup and see how dangerous it looks. Just to clarify, I didnt put any pressure on it, was just seeing if it might line up. And it does feel like I am onto something. Coytee - It is kind of along the lines of your bottle jack with A-frame setup.

 

[Jonas302]

The good news is where your thrust bearing is missing you have plenty of room to cut the pin off with a torch or cutoff wheel then it can be drilled though and pressed out if it should come to that

 

[1693TA]

If it were me, I'd slice that pin through the area where the thrust bearing was and the bottom of the severed pin should easily remove dropping the assembly down. Slice the pin through in the now gap at the top and pull the spindle free transporting to a shop with a upright press to remove the stuck pin in the spindle.

 

[MD_Tractor_85]

Thanks for the feedback guys.
Question Jonas302: if it comes to having to cut it our and Hydraulic press it.. what is the need for drilling a hole for ? Would the hole be drilled right down the center of the pin ? I'm still hoping I get lucky and don't have to cut it out. I guess it's nice to know the option is there though

 

[Jonas302]

If it get to that point you would drill though the center of the pin if a press doesn't push it out the hole may relieve some pressure after that you start enlarging the hole with cutting torch will shrink the pin until it decides to fall out
Consider that the last option because the pin will defiantly be removed at that point

Hopefully your splitter press will work if not you have some options in mind

 

[MD_Tractor_85]

Interesting. Would have never guessed a center drilled hole would help.. But I guess it makes sense. I will let everyone know how it goes after I modify the wedge on the log splitter, get it set into position and then put the torch on it. I am hoping for the best. I will send a picture once I get the modified log splitter in place, now that I have everything else disconnected.

 

[swampman]

I agree with Jonas and 1693. Save yourself some time and a log splitter and cut through the pin. Take the entire spindle out with the remainder of the stuck pin to someone with a shop press.

 

[stinky64]

When I did one of the kingpins on my 580C it was so seized an hour with a rosebud was futile, would not budge with a BFH..wound up cutting the king pin on the top and bottom of the spindle to remove, I was afraid I was going to damage or bend something with that much heat,(lucky for you the top bearing is gone so you have the same option if needed) I took the spindle to work and once again proceeded with the rosebud and a very large press, still no luck..Wound up burning the center out of the kingpin,ever so slowly so as to not smoke the tip on the torch then put it in the same press and it pushed out pretty easy, just something to think about if you get jammed up...

This is printed in English isn't it????

 

[Tinkerer]

I have done the center drilled hole and cutting torch method many times.
I have a demolition style cutting torch.
A good burn requires a big tip and high flow of oxygen.
It is very easy to tilt the torch head and gouge the bore that the pin is in.