Bobcat T190 Engine help.

[Black71gp]

Hello, I recently aquired a 2003 bobcat t190 with the V2003-TE engine. Has 3700 Hrs.

I have been using it but, its been giving me some issues, major issue is Hard starting, and excessive black smoke and engine lugging. When starting it puffs a bunch of white smoke while cranking, then when it fires its all black. constant haze when just running, and heavier black when under load.

I took it into the local Bobcat Dealer, To have them check out the fuel system. (which they never did)

After they "looked" it over and charged me 6 hours of labor at $90 and hr, they decided it needed a new engine, and it would cost $9000 to have them put a new reman engine in. I said no way and brought it home.

I can not get them to give me much of what they did to it. The said it needs a new engine because it is low compression. And that is why it doesnt start wel, and why it smokes. After talking to the mechanic who was doing the work, all he said he did was test the glow plugs, then checked compression, and thats it. somehow that took 6 hrs. whatever.

Compression is as follows 380-390-390-380. New spec is 412-420, according to info I found from Kubota, minimum allowable spec is 355 with no more than 10% difference in cylinders. So that seems to me like the compression is still within specs, and for 3700 hr bobcat probably ok?

Its been a while since i had my diesel ASE certs, but hard start and black smoke, I would look at fuel first? I already checked air filters and turbo condition, all are ok.

My questions are do you think I need a whole new engine based off those compression numbers?
How should I go about testing fuel injection system?
Can i pull the pump and have a local injector place bench test the injection pump? would they be able to find out what they need to from a bench test.

Anything else I can do to get this machine up and running properly again?

Thanks.

 

[willie59]

In most cases, with a poor starting and poor running engine, one of the first things I do is pull the injectors and have them tested at an injection shop. It's easy for them to do, and if they're bad it's usually rather obvious to them, and having them tested even to find they're ok doesn't cost you much coin. Likewise, if they find they're bad, you know to repair/replace them. Many times just going through the injectors helps a sick engine. If the injectors were in poor shape, and it's still not running right, injection pump could be in poor shape as well. It's not unusual for those two failures to go hand in hand, this low sulphur fuel we use nowdays is tough on injection systems. It's not a hard job to remove the injection pump on a Kubota engine.

 

[Black71gp]

Which is what I told them to check first, but for some reason they went another route and charged a fortune for a fricken compression test which still pisses me off. I'll pull the injectors and the pump and take them in to get tested.

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy thinking that 380-390 was still fine compression and not causing the smoke issues.

 

[Mobiltech]

380 should be plenty to start a diesel. The test for compression can change a lot due to cranking speed also. I would be looking at fuel delivery and timing.

 

[Delmer]

If the injectors were in poor shape, and it's still not running right, injection pump could be in poor shape as well.

The injection pump may be easy (in willie's opinion) but it's still a lot more to mess up than just the injectors.

 

[willie59]

The injection pump may be easy (in willie's opinion) but it's still a lot more to mess up than just the injectors.

Well, I didn't really say it was easy, just said it wasn't that hard of a job because, unlike most injection pumps, on a Kubota like that one you don't have to mess with timing, you simply pull the pump rack out of the governor housing, no gears to pull or timing marks to line up.

 

[Delmer]

I'm not arguing, just repeating to check the injectors first. That's what I'd do anyway, the injectors have a harder life than the pump, IMHO.

 

[willie59]

I'm not arguing, just repeating to check the injectors first. That's what I'd do anyway, the injectors have a harder life than the pump, IMHO.

Copy dat! :drinkup

 

[Black71gp]

Thanks all for confirming what I thought..

I dropped the 4 injectors and the injection pump off at the testing place today. Will update with what they find.

 

[Black71gp]

Injectors tested good.

injection pump needs seals rebuilt.

we will see if it helps with the hard start or excessive black smoke.

will keep things updated. would like to hopefully prove the dealer wrong that it doesnt need a new engine. we shall see

 

[zhkent]

Can you check the timing?

 

[Black71gp]

Not sure how, I'm gonna have to look that up once I get everything back and reinstalled.

 

[willie59]

It's a flow timing process on a Kubota. It requires a high pressure lift pump, something 20 to 40 psi, or take apart the #1 injection delivery valve and remove the check valve plate, then re-install the delivery valve and use the primer bulb as a lift pump. Disconnect the injection line from #1 delivery valve. Set fuel shut off to run position on engines that have external linkage fuel shutoff. On engines that have internal linkage shutoff, remove the shut down solenoid. Activate your lift pump (or primer bulb), bar engine over CW while watching for timing mark on flywheel view through inspection hole above flywheel sensor. When fuel begins to flow from #1 injection delivery valve you should be on your timing mark. It depends on the year model engine as to what the mark is. Your injection shop should be able to give you more info on the process considering you just spent some money with them to check and work on your components.

 

[Black71gp]

Thanks, I'll see if I can figure that out meanwhile, everything is back together. Might have started a little better but still has black haze, and still has the power issues at times. Injectors were ok, pump was rebuilt. Is timing next to check? Could compression be causing black smoke? 390 instead of new 412?

 

[Wes J]

Could be an issue with the turbo or air filter, especially if it is losing power. Injection timing can't just change for no reason. If no one monkeyed with it, chances are that is not the issue. If you have verified compression and fuel injection, to me that means it could be a lack of air. Might also be worth taking the valve cover off and checking/setting the valves.

I don't know how Bobcat gets away with the awful service at their dealerships. The one here in Peoria is terrible. All they can do is hook up a computer or swap out an engine.

 

[willie59]

Could compression be causing black smoke? 390 instead of new 412?

With diesel engines, typically, low compression causes white smoke, not dark/black smoke. The diesel principle works by compressing air rapidly. When you compress air rapidly it heats the air. The idea is to heat the air (via compression) to a temperature that will ignite fuel oil, in this case diesel fuel. Low compression typically causes a poor burn of fuel, air wasn't heated enough to efficiently ignite the fuel oil resulting in white smoke. Really really poor compression, as in a worn slap out engine, will make it really really hard to start the engine, even using starting fluid.

Black smoke is typically air/fuel ration mixture not optimum. Could be too much fuel, but going through the injection system should resolve that, other would be not enough air in the combustion chamber. Like Wes J stated, check your air intake system thoroughly, but the turbo would have limited effect on start up since an engine has to be revving at least 1,600 to 1,800 rpm for a turbo to spin fast enough to effect engine performance, they really don't do much to an engine at start up.

And I don't think a 2003 has it, but I figure I'd ask, does this Kubota have an EGR system?

 

[Black71gp]

Yes I figured slightly low compression would not be causing these issues. Black smoke is almost always a fuel or air related issues based on other engines I've worked on.

Ok so turbo still checks out good. Blades spin no play in the shaft, running the turbo produces good flow rev the engine up and get a lot more. While messing around today I didn't have the clamp on the boost hose going from turbo to intake, after lugging down the engine, getting the overly black smoke. The turbo hose popped off. So there seems to be plenty of boost, this was all done with intake system before the turbo disconnected as to make sure there was no issues there. Still got the heavy black smoke when load is applied. And haze when just running no load.

No egr on this engine.

I did remove the valve cover and measured the loose rockers. They were around .025 clearance. Online spec states should be .007-.008, I will adjust those.

The head on this Machine was changed at some point. It is a different color than the rest of the engine. I feel the engine starts slightly better than before. But still not how it should, or how my other bobcats have started.

 

[willie59]

Well, to repeat what mobiltech said in post #4, you need to verify you have good fuel supply, and since you really don't know the history of the machine it wouldn't be a bad idea to verify ignition timing is correct, that would eliminate two more possibilities. Take care of the 3 simple things first with a diesel, that is, it takes 3 simple things to make a diesel run; fuel, oxygen, and compression, a lack of any of these three things will cause problems.

 

[Black71gp]

Ok. Moving forward,

Valves were a bit out of adjustment, adjusted to spec, disconnected the exhaust in case muffler was plugged. Tried to start. Puffed white and hard start. Decided to check injection timing.

Injection timing testing. From what I found in online manuals,

I disconnected #1 injector line coming off the pump. Turned fuel to full throttle, made the stop lever to run position. I hand turned the engine counter clockwise viewed from flywheel side. Clockwise on crank pulley side. until I saw fuel in the injector cup flow up and over the top.

I matched this with the tdc mark on the flywheel. Mine only has one mark not multiple like the manual stated.

Timing is supposed to be 17-19* BTDC. So if I understand that right, the fuel cup should flow over before I spin the engine around to the tdc mark on the flywheel.

My engine, the tdc mark passes rotation. Then the fuel cup fills. Possibly 20* ATDC? Turns a bit after before the cup fills. I've gone back and forth a few times to test.

Did I do the test right? If so seems timing is way off. The pump had been out before. How to you set timing with shims? And which ones would I need?

 

[Mobiltech]

One more thought. Are the valves on number 1 cylinder both loose when fuel starts to flow out number 1 or are the valves on rock over. I have seen pumps put on 180 degrees out and still run. Very poorly