Another Perkins Pukes

[Steve Frazier]

OK, finally have some pics to post:

The first is the engine ID tag



Next is the engine pressure washed ready for disassembly



Here is the spider crack in the block, number 4 cylinder. The engine casting number is supposed to tell a lot about it, if anyone knows how to decipher it I'd appreciate it.



Number 3 rod bearing spun



Number 4 rod destroyed, bearing melted

 

[Steve Frazier]

This is the oil pump housing cast into the front cover. The circled bolt plus the other two similar allow the oil pump housing cover to be removed. A portion of it is still attached here.



This is the oil pum rotor plus broken portion of cover plate. The circled edge mates with the portion still attached to the front cover pictured abaove.



I've been in contact with the Service Manager at my Cat dealer, he said he'll see what he can do but the calander is against me. I'm hoping I can get at least some assistance. I'm probably stuck putting an identical engine in and given what I've read about these and what my mechanic has told me I'm not real warm and fuzzy about the idea. I'd love to be able to fit in a Cummins 4BT but there would be a lot of adapting.

 

[Bob/Ont]

Steve, that's a different and much better pump than was on the engine I described to you.
To me it looks like the oil flow got stopped somehow and the pump exploded. Doesn't sound logical but makes me wonder.
Later Bob

 

[DGODGR]

I've been in contact with the Service Manager at my Cat dealer, he said he'll see what he can do but the calander is against me. I'm hoping I can get at least some assistance. I'm probably stuck putting an identical engine in and given what I've read about these and what my mechanic has told me I'm not real warm and fuzzy about the idea. I'd love to be able to fit in a Cummins 4BT but there would be a lot of adapting.

Are you being told that this is not an anomally for this engine? If the later versions were supplied with a Mitsubishi it might be much easier to put that in there (if those are more reliable than the Perkins). The parts should be available through Cat so maybe no customizing would be required. I can only imagine the things that would have to be custom made to install a 4BT.
One thing I know for sure. I do not envy you in your situation.

 

[ih100]

Steve, this is an anomaly with this engine, don't be frightened of replacing like with like. This is different to the engine that provoked the thread.

 

[Steve Frazier]

Can anyone tell me how the cam gear and injection pump gear come off? I've tried a puller and tapped on the center bolt while it was taught but they don't show a hint of moving. I don't want to crank the torque to the puller unless I know they pull off.

 

[Lee-online]

There are two kinds, some are pressed on and dont come off and others use a keyway and can come off but are a really tight fit. Both look the same.

The correct way is to remove the injection pump from the governor and then disassemble the gov and remove the gear still on the cam.

 

[watglen]

2005 CAT 257B with Perkins engine. 637 hrs.

Well, I knew my day would come.

Last time I checked the oil it was down quite a bit, low on the stick, not gone.

Thought it was unusual, better keep an eye on it. Topped it up.

This morning, same thing.

Left the filler cap off and started it. Blow by like I have never seen before. Massive amounts of hot exhaust blasting out.

Coolant level is good. A little black smoke on acceleration, clean otherwise. Crank vents into air intake between the turbo and manifold.

Silly thing starts and runs fine. If there was something wrong inside you'ld never know it. Maybe the slight hint of a miss, but barely noticeable.

One dealer says cracked ring leading to scored cylinder and piston

Other dealer says possible head gasket failure into and oil gallery.

Coolant level is good. A little black smoke on acceleration, clean otherwise. Crank vents into air intake between the turbo and manifold.

Said ASV ran into head gasket problems on perkins back in around the mid 2000's. Perkins was warrantying them then.

Anyway, finish the job we are on and take it in.

Oh what fun.

 

[jrtraderny]

2005 CAT 257B with Perkins engine. 637 hrs.

Well, I knew my day would come.

Last time I checked the oil it was down quite a bit, low on the stick, not gone.

Thought it was unusual, better keep an eye on it. Topped it up.

This morning, same thing.

Left the filler cap off and started it. Blow by like I have never seen before. Massive amounts of hot exhaust blasting out.

Coolant level is good. A little black smoke on acceleration, clean otherwise. Crank vents into air intake between the turbo and manifold.

Silly thing starts and runs fine. If there was something wrong inside you'ld never know it. Maybe the slight hint of a miss, but barely noticeable.

One dealer says cracked ring leading to scored cylinder and piston

Other dealer says possible head gasket failure into and oil gallery.

Coolant level is good. A little black smoke on acceleration, clean otherwise. Crank vents into air intake between the turbo and manifold.

Said ASV ran into head gasket problems on perkins back in around the mid 2000's. Perkins was warrantying them then.

Anyway, finish the job we are on and take it in.

Oh what fun.

2010 247B2 with 647 hrs. first 3 oil samples showed coolant in oil. This last one OK go figure+.

 

[KSSS]

I would think that if your head gasket was out you would be seeing pressure in the radiator and or blowing out from the overflow. Either way not good. Maybe CAT will help you out. I have buddy that had his 226B lose the engine at 300 hours. It was out of warranty but the dealership, after some unkind words from my buddy were exchanged with CAT, they picked up the bill. Given the amount of failures with that engine CAT should be fixing all them on their dime. They seem to be getting a free pass on issue.

 

[watglen]

Yeah, I would think that by now CAT compact equipment would be nearly unmarketable. I don't know how the rest of the lines are, but those skid steers have ruined my taste for any of the small CAT equipment.

Seems like they had a bad run for a while, between the asv undercarriage, and these perkins motors.

 

[Digdeep]

Only the 2.2L engine had head gasket issues. The other engines were very solid. This is the same 2.2L Shibura/Perkins engine that gave CNH and ASV fits too.

 

[watglen]

I found a forum discussion showing pics of a blown headgasket etc. I suspect that's what we have in mine.

I wonder if continuing to run it ( gently) to finish up the week will harm it any further. I worry the hot exhaust entering the crankcase is going to expose parts to more heat, or soot, than they can handle. I worry about crank seals, journal bearings.

Thoughts?

 

[Steve Frazier]

I finally have a conclusion to this story. Cat stepped up to the plate and provided me with a rebuilt engine at no charge provided I let their service department reassemble my core and transfer all components from the original to the rebuilt. That cost was about $1200. I also hired a mechanic to remove and install the engine which ran about $800 so my total cost was about $2000. The price of the rebuild alone was nearly $10,000 plus the $800 R&R would have been about $11,000 to me, a $9000 difference. It took quite some time to work out all the logistics but my 248 has a fresh motor in it.

 

[watglen]

I finally have a conclusion to this story. Cat stepped up to the plate and provided me with a rebuilt engine at no charge provided I let their service department reassemble my core and transfer all components from the original to the rebuilt. That cost was about $1200. I also hired a mechanic to remove and install the engine which ran about $800 so my total cost was about $2000. The price of the rebuild alone was nearly $10,000 plus the $800 R&R would have been about $11,000 to me, a $9000 difference. It took quite some time to work out all the logistics but my 248 has a fresh motor in it.

Good news Steve!

In the end, mine was a badly blow head gasket, venting combustion chamber pressure into the pushrod gallery I believe. For sure the pressure was going into the crankcase, and venting out the crankcase vent, or oil fill cap.

ASV fixed all theirs in a big recall. I took the unit to an ASV dealer, they had fixed many of these a few years ago.

Ken

 

[jfgold]

Hello and Thanks for the extensive thread, wish I would have found this earlier. I have a 2005 232B that spun #3 rod bearing at 1300 hrs. I am just getting around to doing it and came to a wall on shop manuals. I have every manual for the machine BUT the engine manuals, go figure right! Checked eBay and found only an older model manual, then went to dealer. Dealer says, have to buy complete set for $800+. I say no way I can afford this so searched another week for the manuals with no success. Called back guy from ebay who I had a nice talk with when inquiring about the manuals and he said "No way, they sell them individually you just got a bad parts guy" so I called Alban Cat in Baltimore where I reached a very nice parts man who found me the manual part numbers. All four engine manuals for under $90! The man was so good a parts man and knew I was calling from another territory that he gave me the numbers and asked me to purchase them from Ransome Cat who is my local dealer. I obliged him and called back Ransome and gave them the parts I wanted and he said that he would order them. This was the same guy and he remembered me being there about these manuals. He never asked me for a credit card number and said they could take as long as two weeks to come from the printer. I HOPE he ordered them! What I could desperately use is the torque specs for the rods so that the machine shop can check their machining against the new undersized bearings. If anyone could supply this info it would be a great help to me. I bought a Maxiforce rebuild kit for this machine as it was so much better priced than the Cat version. I read that Maxiforce was a good company, any experience with success/failure of their parts? Any tips that may not be in the manuals for putting this engine back together? Comments? Thanks a lot for everyone's willingness to share your experiences with us it is truly a very valuable service you provide for us members!

Joe

 

[Steve Frazier]

Did you determine the cause of the failure?

I'd write to corporate via their webpage and see if they will help you at all. I was able to get them to replace my engine at the same hours but 5 years older than yours.

 

[frogfarmer]

Hello and Thanks for the extensive thread, wish I would have found this earlier. I have a 2005 232B that spun #3 rod bearing at 1300 hrs. I am just getting around to doing it and came to a wall on shop manuals. I have every manual for the machine BUT the engine manuals, go figure right! Checked eBay and found only an older model manual, then went to dealer. Dealer says, have to buy complete set for $800+. I say no way I can afford this so searched another week for the manuals with no success. Called back guy from ebay who I had a nice talk with when inquiring about the manuals and he said "No way, they sell them individually you just got a bad parts guy" so I called Alban Cat in Baltimore where I reached a very nice parts man who found me the manual part numbers. All four engine manuals for under $90! The man was so good a parts man and knew I was calling from another territory that he gave me the numbers and asked me to purchase them from Ransome Cat who is my local dealer. I obliged him and called back Ransome and gave them the parts I wanted and he said that he would order them. This was the same guy and he remembered me being there about these manuals. He never asked me for a credit card number and said they could take as long as two weeks to come from the printer. I HOPE he ordered them! What I could desperately use is the torque specs for the rods so that the machine shop can check their machining against the new undersized bearings. If anyone could supply this info it would be a great help to me. I bought a Maxiforce rebuild kit for this machine as it was so much better priced than the Cat version. I read that Maxiforce was a good company, any experience with success/failure of their parts? Any tips that may not be in the manuals for putting this engine back together? Comments? Thanks a lot for everyone's willingness to share your experiences with us it is truly a very valuable service you provide for us members!

Joe

36-40ft/lb for the rods and the main carriers

 

[jfgold]

THANK YOU so much, you don't know how much you helped a man in need! What a Great site!

 

[Jesse3474]

For future reference, the Perkins 6t is the only good Perkins engine they made bullet proof, 4 cylinders not so good