TorchHypnosis
Active Member
Where is the map sensor?
-
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2007 International 4300 Durastar no power on freeway
- Thread starter TorchHypnosis
- Start date
cfherrman
Senior Member
What boost was it at?
I'm sure the shop will take care of you, expect the bill to be no lower than $10,000
I'm sure the shop will take care of you, expect the bill to be no lower than $10,000
TorchHypnosis
Active Member
UPDATE:
The 2nd shop we brought this truck to kept the truck for over two weeks and has not been able to diagnose the problem. So that is why the long delay to post this update.
At first the shop said the turbo probably just needed programming. The next day they told me that this turbo was not serviceable, and there was no programming port so there was no way to program it. Then they said the actuator arm on the VGT is moving backwards. Which is confusing because everything I have read about this actuator is that upon key in on position the arm should swing all the way out, then all the way in, then back to center. Which is what the OLD turbo did, as well as the new turbo I just installed. They said the arm should swing all the way in, then all the way out, then back to center. They say I should consider replacing the turbo again.
That being said, since the old turbo actuator is doing the same as the new turbo, I don't think the turbo itself is to blame for this turbo malfunction, but who knows. I DO know that we used to be able to get up to 45 on a flat road, and even 60 if going downhill. After we picked it up from the shop we could only get up to 30 on a flat road.
Two things I was going to investigate...I noticed the MAP sensor connector was a little loose, so I was going to replace the connector (the MAP sensor has already been replaced). The second thing was to look for a "dead spot" in the rheostat that is the throttle near the gas pedal....however, now that the truck has lost even more power I don't see how that could be the issue...besides, if the truck got triggered to go into limp mode it should have thrown a code.
The only code I was getting before I dropped it off to the shop was:
SID27 FMI6 Variable Geometry Turbocharger Actuator #1 Current above normal or grounded circuit.
They must have cleared the codes because now I'm not seeing any codes. But we only drove about 1 mile to get the truck from their shop back to our shop so we probably didn't drive it long enough to trigger a code.
My boss is over it, he wants to just bite the bullet and drive the truck 30 miles on the back roads to a place called RWC group, an International dealership. They charge over $600 just for a diagnosis, but they verbally guaranteed they could give us an accurate diagnosis. We are leaving here in about an hour.
We will get to the bottom of this one way or another and I will definitely post here what the culprit was. Thank you all for your insights.
The 2nd shop we brought this truck to kept the truck for over two weeks and has not been able to diagnose the problem. So that is why the long delay to post this update.
At first the shop said the turbo probably just needed programming. The next day they told me that this turbo was not serviceable, and there was no programming port so there was no way to program it. Then they said the actuator arm on the VGT is moving backwards. Which is confusing because everything I have read about this actuator is that upon key in on position the arm should swing all the way out, then all the way in, then back to center. Which is what the OLD turbo did, as well as the new turbo I just installed. They said the arm should swing all the way in, then all the way out, then back to center. They say I should consider replacing the turbo again.
That being said, since the old turbo actuator is doing the same as the new turbo, I don't think the turbo itself is to blame for this turbo malfunction, but who knows. I DO know that we used to be able to get up to 45 on a flat road, and even 60 if going downhill. After we picked it up from the shop we could only get up to 30 on a flat road.
Two things I was going to investigate...I noticed the MAP sensor connector was a little loose, so I was going to replace the connector (the MAP sensor has already been replaced). The second thing was to look for a "dead spot" in the rheostat that is the throttle near the gas pedal....however, now that the truck has lost even more power I don't see how that could be the issue...besides, if the truck got triggered to go into limp mode it should have thrown a code.
The only code I was getting before I dropped it off to the shop was:
SID27 FMI6 Variable Geometry Turbocharger Actuator #1 Current above normal or grounded circuit.
They must have cleared the codes because now I'm not seeing any codes. But we only drove about 1 mile to get the truck from their shop back to our shop so we probably didn't drive it long enough to trigger a code.
My boss is over it, he wants to just bite the bullet and drive the truck 30 miles on the back roads to a place called RWC group, an International dealership. They charge over $600 just for a diagnosis, but they verbally guaranteed they could give us an accurate diagnosis. We are leaving here in about an hour.
We will get to the bottom of this one way or another and I will definitely post here what the culprit was. Thank you all for your insights.
cfherrman
Senior Member
Good deal
I would take that $600 and buy some sort of scanner that can read live data so you can stop throwing parts at it.
I would take that $600 and buy some sort of scanner that can read live data so you can stop throwing parts at it.
TorchHypnosis
Active Member
UPDATE:
Finally got the truck back from the second shop after they kept it for over two weeks and did nothing. When we dropped it off they said it just needed programming. The next day they said the turbo was not programmable as there was no programming port. They also said the actuator arm was moving backwards. Mind you, the old turbo and the new turbo I just installed were both moving the same way when the key hit the on position, first all the way out, then all the way in, then back to center. The shop said it was supposed to start by moving all the way in, then all the way out, then back to center. Everything I have read in the forums and heard from mechanics is that the actuator arms from BOTH of the turbos have been moving correctly upon key in on position. I believe there is something else causing this turbo failure. Still, with both turbos, I am seeing the same DTC:
SID27/FMI6 error code. VGT actuator current above normal or grounded circuit
I did notice the MAP sensor connector was a bit loose...not the wires, but the connector itself. Iwas going to change that out. I was also going to check the rheostat connected to the gas pedal for dead spots as I understand those can cause the truck to enter limp mode. But I would think that if that were to happen it would have thrown a code.
I have heard of some folks cutting the red wire at the actuator and running a switch inline to cut the solenoid which is supposed to open the turbo up all the way, but I dont want to try that because most people say that's a bad idea, and I want to get to the root cause anyway.
Unfortunately it looks like I will not be doing anymore testing because my boss is over it and is going to drop the truck off at the dealership. They charge over $600 just for a diagnostic, but they guarantee they can provide an accurate diagnosis.
Thanks to everyone for your insight, I really appreciate it. I will post what the problem is, hopefully tomorrow!
Finally got the truck back from the second shop after they kept it for over two weeks and did nothing. When we dropped it off they said it just needed programming. The next day they said the turbo was not programmable as there was no programming port. They also said the actuator arm was moving backwards. Mind you, the old turbo and the new turbo I just installed were both moving the same way when the key hit the on position, first all the way out, then all the way in, then back to center. The shop said it was supposed to start by moving all the way in, then all the way out, then back to center. Everything I have read in the forums and heard from mechanics is that the actuator arms from BOTH of the turbos have been moving correctly upon key in on position. I believe there is something else causing this turbo failure. Still, with both turbos, I am seeing the same DTC:
SID27/FMI6 error code. VGT actuator current above normal or grounded circuit
I did notice the MAP sensor connector was a bit loose...not the wires, but the connector itself. Iwas going to change that out. I was also going to check the rheostat connected to the gas pedal for dead spots as I understand those can cause the truck to enter limp mode. But I would think that if that were to happen it would have thrown a code.
I have heard of some folks cutting the red wire at the actuator and running a switch inline to cut the solenoid which is supposed to open the turbo up all the way, but I dont want to try that because most people say that's a bad idea, and I want to get to the root cause anyway.
Unfortunately it looks like I will not be doing anymore testing because my boss is over it and is going to drop the truck off at the dealership. They charge over $600 just for a diagnostic, but they guarantee they can provide an accurate diagnosis.
Thanks to everyone for your insight, I really appreciate it. I will post what the problem is, hopefully tomorrow!
TorchHypnosis
Active Member
cfherrman, we have a scanner that can read live data. That was how I could get rid of 13 of the 14 original DTCs. But thanks for the suggestion though! That was the first thing I did.
cfherrman
Senior Member
You should be able to see boost pressure and your throttle position and see how they are working
If that engine runs like a 6.0 you don't want to mess with vgt, it also controls the hoist so you can over boost the engine line that
If that engine runs like a 6.0 you don't want to mess with vgt, it also controls the hoist so you can over boost the engine line that
Coaldust
Senior Member
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Great write up. That’s been my experience as well. The strainer is the cause of many low power complaints.
TorchHypnosis
Active Member
Couple questions:
cfherrman When you say if the engine runs like a 6.0 is that a unit of measure for boost? If not, could you clarify?
Coaldust: What strainer are you talking about? The one under the fuel filter/water separator housing?
I dropped the truck off at the dealership yesterday, and I was listing all of the original 14 codes that were stored before I began working on the truck in an email for their techs to look at. Mind you I cleared 13 of the 14, but I noticed something that bothers me...one of the codes was:
SID146 FMI7
EGR valve mechanical system not working properly
Now I did NOTHING with the EGR valve. I'm wondering if that may be an issue...we have driven it on the highway 140 miles since I got it down to the one VGT actuator code, is it possible the EGR valve is bad but for some reason is not throwing a code?
Thanks again!
cfherrman When you say if the engine runs like a 6.0 is that a unit of measure for boost? If not, could you clarify?
Coaldust: What strainer are you talking about? The one under the fuel filter/water separator housing?
I dropped the truck off at the dealership yesterday, and I was listing all of the original 14 codes that were stored before I began working on the truck in an email for their techs to look at. Mind you I cleared 13 of the 14, but I noticed something that bothers me...one of the codes was:
SID146 FMI7
EGR valve mechanical system not working properly
Now I did NOTHING with the EGR valve. I'm wondering if that may be an issue...we have driven it on the highway 140 miles since I got it down to the one VGT actuator code, is it possible the EGR valve is bad but for some reason is not throwing a code?
Thanks again!
TorchHypnosis
Active Member
I keep finding posts like this one for my the exact model of my truck, which is why I'm thinking more and more the EGR valve might be causing this SID146/FMI7 (354) code:
Exhaust gas flow can be regulated depending on required exhaust back pressure for engine speed and load. As demand for EBP increases, the ECM increases the pulse-width modulation to the VGT control module. When EBP demand decreases, the ECM decreases the duty cycle to the control module.
Actuator control for the vane position is achieved by setting a pulse width modulated signal from the ECM in response to the following:
Engine speed
Desired fuel quantity
Boost
Exhaust back pressure and altitude
The Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system controls the amount of exhaust gas being introduced to the engine mixer duct by modulating the EGR valve. The EGR actuator is located at the front of the engine on the mixer duct.
The EGR drive module controls the EGR actuator and is located on the left side of the engine on the ECM and Injector Driver Module (IDM).
The ECM calculates the appropriate desired EGR valve position in response to the changing engine speed, fuel desired, operator demand, engine operating temperatures, exhaust back pressure, boost pressure and altitude. The ECM uses sensor input from the following:
Variable Geometry Turbocharger (VGT) actuator
Accelerator Position Sensor (APS)
EGR actuator with position sensors
EGR drive module
Exhaust Back Pressure (EBP) sensor
Manifold Absolute Temperature (MAT) sensor
Barometric Absolute Pressure (BAP) sensor
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor
Engine Oil Temperature (EOT) sensor
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor
The EGR drive module provides feedback to the ECM on the valve position. The EGR drive module interprets the ECM command and sends the command using three pulse width modulated signals to the valve actuator.
The system is closed loop control using the EGR position signals. The EGR drive module provides a 9 V supply and ground to the Integrated Circuit (IC) in the motor of the valve. When the EGR drive module directs the valve to move, the IC with three Hall effect sensors provides the EGR drive module with the valve position signals. The EGR drive module interprets the three signals to determine valve position and sends the information back to the ECM.
Fault Detection / Management
The ECM continuously monitors the Air Management System (AMS). When the ECM detects a fault in the any of the interdependent systems, the ECM will set a DTC and illuminate the amber ENGINE lamp.
The Variable Geometry Turbocharger (VGT) is continuously monitored by the ECM using the exhaust back pressure and the VGT pulse-width modulated signal's duty cycle. A DTC is logged when the ECM determines that the duty cycle required to reach the desired boost or exhaust back pressure is greater or less than the ECM's pre-programmed expected values.
The Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) actuator is continuously monitored by the EGR drive module. When an EGR control error is detected, the EGR drive module sends a message to the ECM, a DTC is set, and the amber ENGINE lamp is illuminated. For additional function and operational information
DTC 354 - VGT control under duty cycle
DTC 354 is set when the ECM overcompensates by decreasing duty cycle to the VGT to achieve the desired boost/back pressure.
Possible Cause
Comment
BAP sensor bias high
Check sensor signal voltage.
MAP sensor bias high
Check sensor signal voltage.
EBP sensor bias high
Check sensor signal voltage.
Open Exhaust (no muffler)
Inspect exhaust system.
ICP sensor bias low
Check sensor signal voltage.
ICP system integrity
Injector operation / part number
Check previous repairs.
Exhaust restriction (muffler or catalytic converter)
Inspect exhaust.
VGT control circuit short to B+.
Do VGT Pin-Point Diagnostics.
VGT actuator or vanes stuck
Do "Performance Diagnostics" .
Exhaust gas flow can be regulated depending on required exhaust back pressure for engine speed and load. As demand for EBP increases, the ECM increases the pulse-width modulation to the VGT control module. When EBP demand decreases, the ECM decreases the duty cycle to the control module.
Actuator control for the vane position is achieved by setting a pulse width modulated signal from the ECM in response to the following:
Engine speed
Desired fuel quantity
Boost
Exhaust back pressure and altitude
The Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system controls the amount of exhaust gas being introduced to the engine mixer duct by modulating the EGR valve. The EGR actuator is located at the front of the engine on the mixer duct.
The EGR drive module controls the EGR actuator and is located on the left side of the engine on the ECM and Injector Driver Module (IDM).
The ECM calculates the appropriate desired EGR valve position in response to the changing engine speed, fuel desired, operator demand, engine operating temperatures, exhaust back pressure, boost pressure and altitude. The ECM uses sensor input from the following:
Variable Geometry Turbocharger (VGT) actuator
Accelerator Position Sensor (APS)
EGR actuator with position sensors
EGR drive module
Exhaust Back Pressure (EBP) sensor
Manifold Absolute Temperature (MAT) sensor
Barometric Absolute Pressure (BAP) sensor
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor
Engine Oil Temperature (EOT) sensor
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor
The EGR drive module provides feedback to the ECM on the valve position. The EGR drive module interprets the ECM command and sends the command using three pulse width modulated signals to the valve actuator.
The system is closed loop control using the EGR position signals. The EGR drive module provides a 9 V supply and ground to the Integrated Circuit (IC) in the motor of the valve. When the EGR drive module directs the valve to move, the IC with three Hall effect sensors provides the EGR drive module with the valve position signals. The EGR drive module interprets the three signals to determine valve position and sends the information back to the ECM.
Fault Detection / Management
The ECM continuously monitors the Air Management System (AMS). When the ECM detects a fault in the any of the interdependent systems, the ECM will set a DTC and illuminate the amber ENGINE lamp.
The Variable Geometry Turbocharger (VGT) is continuously monitored by the ECM using the exhaust back pressure and the VGT pulse-width modulated signal's duty cycle. A DTC is logged when the ECM determines that the duty cycle required to reach the desired boost or exhaust back pressure is greater or less than the ECM's pre-programmed expected values.
The Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) actuator is continuously monitored by the EGR drive module. When an EGR control error is detected, the EGR drive module sends a message to the ECM, a DTC is set, and the amber ENGINE lamp is illuminated. For additional function and operational information
DTC 354 - VGT control under duty cycle
DTC 354 is set when the ECM overcompensates by decreasing duty cycle to the VGT to achieve the desired boost/back pressure.
Possible Cause
Comment
BAP sensor bias high
Check sensor signal voltage.
MAP sensor bias high
Check sensor signal voltage.
EBP sensor bias high
Check sensor signal voltage.
Open Exhaust (no muffler)
Inspect exhaust system.
ICP sensor bias low
Check sensor signal voltage.
ICP system integrity
Injector operation / part number
Check previous repairs.
Exhaust restriction (muffler or catalytic converter)
Inspect exhaust.
VGT control circuit short to B+.
Do VGT Pin-Point Diagnostics.
VGT actuator or vanes stuck
Do "Performance Diagnostics" .
cfherrman
Senior Member
The Ford 6.0 diesel engine, a heui engine made by international, vt365.
TorchHypnosis
Active Member
Aah...thanks for that cfherrman.
TorchHypnosis
Active Member
Okay everyone. Got the truck back from RWC group truck dealership in Tacoma WA, can't say I'm impressed, but I am not surprised. They quoted me $690 for the diagnostic. So I dropped it off with them to perform it as I was at my wit's end. Their diagnostic was EGR valve not closing, muffler restriction, needs clutch kit and leaky rear diff...repair for a grand total of $20,000. They wanted $1800 to do the EGR valve. When I picked up the truck so I could perform the repairs myself their "diagnostic" fee increased to $1000. Was not too thrilled with that. So I ordered a Dorman EGR valve, figured I would start with that because originally there was an EGR code "EGR valve mechanical failure", so even though the code was no longer populating, I figured SOMETHING must have triggered the code at some point. I took the old one off (took about 10 minutes) and it was CLEAN on the inside, and had NO problems opening and closing. Why they said the valve wasn't closing all the way I can only make conjectures. I thought maybe the actuator wasn't opening the valve, so I went ahead and put the new one in. Did not fix the issue. On a side note about the clutch, we are not slipping, we have no problems getting it into gear, and there is only about 1.5" free play on the clutch pedal before the clutch starts to engage. There is nothing wrong with our clutch.
Now the muffler is the only thing left to check. I was going to remove the rear most O2 sensor and plug a pressure gauge in there. No catalytic converter so not many places to check for pressure. When I googled appropriate PSI right before the muffler it said about 1 PSI at idle, and about 3 PSI at 2500 RPM. But this web page did not seem to be oriented towards Diesel/International trucks. Anyone know appropriate PSI readings just before the muffler for this DT466, or have any other advice on how to test this muffler?
[EDIT] No o2 sensor between muffler and turbo. Scanner live data read 7.5-7.8 PSI at idle as well as at 2500 RPM. Going to google what normal backpressure should be now.
Lastly, the electrical connectors at the MAP and the EGR actuator seem a bit loose, so I was going to go ahead and replace them since they are relatively inexpensive.
Will keep updating this thread as I continue trying to figure out this truck. Any additional thoughts or comments are very much appreciated...this two month nightmare has got to come to an end.
Thanks!
-Monte
Now the muffler is the only thing left to check. I was going to remove the rear most O2 sensor and plug a pressure gauge in there. No catalytic converter so not many places to check for pressure. When I googled appropriate PSI right before the muffler it said about 1 PSI at idle, and about 3 PSI at 2500 RPM. But this web page did not seem to be oriented towards Diesel/International trucks. Anyone know appropriate PSI readings just before the muffler for this DT466, or have any other advice on how to test this muffler?
[EDIT] No o2 sensor between muffler and turbo. Scanner live data read 7.5-7.8 PSI at idle as well as at 2500 RPM. Going to google what normal backpressure should be now.
Lastly, the electrical connectors at the MAP and the EGR actuator seem a bit loose, so I was going to go ahead and replace them since they are relatively inexpensive.
Will keep updating this thread as I continue trying to figure out this truck. Any additional thoughts or comments are very much appreciated...this two month nightmare has got to come to an end.
Thanks!
-Monte
Last edited:
TorchHypnosis
Active Member
Okay, could not find what normal back pressure is online, but I did notice that the backpressure jumped from 7.75 up to 12.6 PSI when I turned off the engine. I would think backpressure would go to zero with the engine off. I think I might drill a hole in the exhaust and insert a pressure gauge before the muffler and check. Maybe a short in the EBP sensor? Argh...going to check fuel pressure again. I pushed the gas pedal to the floor and the truck maxed out at 2750 RPM...is there a governor that stops it from going above this?
Thanks again!
Thanks again!
materthegreater
Senior Member
Why not just take the muffler off and take it for a test drive. I think mine is governed at 2600 rpm or so but I guess I haven't tried flooring it in neutral to find out.
mekanik
Senior Member
Monte
Do you have a way to read live data from the engine while driving the truck? ICP desired and ICP actual would be a help. Can you plumb in a fuel pressure gauge and monitor the pressure while driving the truck?
According to the VIN your truck was built in February 2006 so its a 2006. The engine is rated at 210 HP so there is no power to spare.
I am attaching the performance specs from the diagnostic manual.
Do you have a way to read live data from the engine while driving the truck? ICP desired and ICP actual would be a help. Can you plumb in a fuel pressure gauge and monitor the pressure while driving the truck?
According to the VIN your truck was built in February 2006 so its a 2006. The engine is rated at 210 HP so there is no power to spare.
I am attaching the performance specs from the diagnostic manual.
mekanik
Senior Member
Monte
Below is a breakdown of the fuel filter. #6 is the orifice/regulator assy. It is notorious for getting debris on the seat and a 5 or 10 psi drop in pressure is a substantial loss in power you a gauge will still read 50-55 psi when not running under load.
The transfer pump has three valves that can wear and not seal enough to cause a drop in fuel pressure and a power loss. Driving it with a gauge installed will tell you for sure if they are good or not.
Also if the high pressure pump is wearing out and cant deliver the desired ICP then the power will not be there.
Below is a breakdown of the fuel filter. #6 is the orifice/regulator assy. It is notorious for getting debris on the seat and a 5 or 10 psi drop in pressure is a substantial loss in power you a gauge will still read 50-55 psi when not running under load.
The transfer pump has three valves that can wear and not seal enough to cause a drop in fuel pressure and a power loss. Driving it with a gauge installed will tell you for sure if they are good or not.
Also if the high pressure pump is wearing out and cant deliver the desired ICP then the power will not be there.
TorchHypnosis
Active Member
Thank you Mekanic! I did clean out everything inside that fuel filter housing when I changed the fuel pump...but I don't think I did anything with that #6...I will check first thing in the morning. I will print out all the docs you attached.
I just got done performing an exhaust back pressure test with a mechanical PSI gauge. At idle (615 RPM) it was reading about .8PSI. At 1000 RPM it was reading 5 PSI. At 1500 RPM it was reading 10 PSI, and at 2000 RPM it was reading 20 PSI. Do those numbers seem a bit high to you? Mind you the only reason I used a mechanical gauge is that my scanner was reading 7.6 PSI at idle, 7.8 at 2500 RPM, and 12.4 PSI with the engine off. Either my scanner is faulting, or a sensor is sending a faulty signal. I believe the mechanical gauge.
Oh, and about fuel pressure under load...I will go to industrial hydraulics at 8 AM PST when they open and have them make me a long hose so I can read fuel pressure from the cab. It was reading 60 PSI at idle and 60 PSI at 2500 RPM. Dropped 8 PSI when I floored the accelerator for a couple seconds before it bounced back up to 60 PSI. Will have more information about this issue around noon tomorrow. Thanks again for all your help!
I just got done performing an exhaust back pressure test with a mechanical PSI gauge. At idle (615 RPM) it was reading about .8PSI. At 1000 RPM it was reading 5 PSI. At 1500 RPM it was reading 10 PSI, and at 2000 RPM it was reading 20 PSI. Do those numbers seem a bit high to you? Mind you the only reason I used a mechanical gauge is that my scanner was reading 7.6 PSI at idle, 7.8 at 2500 RPM, and 12.4 PSI with the engine off. Either my scanner is faulting, or a sensor is sending a faulty signal. I believe the mechanical gauge.
Oh, and about fuel pressure under load...I will go to industrial hydraulics at 8 AM PST when they open and have them make me a long hose so I can read fuel pressure from the cab. It was reading 60 PSI at idle and 60 PSI at 2500 RPM. Dropped 8 PSI when I floored the accelerator for a couple seconds before it bounced back up to 60 PSI. Will have more information about this issue around noon tomorrow. Thanks again for all your help!
mekanik
Senior Member
Are you measuring the back pressure ahead of the turbo or after the turbo? The spec on page 2 is 16.1 kPa or 2.33 psi after the turbo at 2300 rpm.
cfherrman
Senior Member
I would guess the back pressure sensor is before the turbo, I don't think after the turbo it can help anything. Key on engine off map baro and ebp should read the same on a cold engine.
I think you learned that mechanics will never fix anything.
I think you learned that mechanics will never fix anything.