9420pullpan
Senior Member
80% of caterpillar scrapers are in California
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pushloading scrapers
- Thread starter ozscooper
- Start date
Ray Welsh
Banned
I read more variations on correct sraper operations than the opinions on President G W Bushs ever changing foreign policy. Just do whatever works in your conditions. Brakes are meant as additional safety and a tip for scraper hands. Carry your bowl low and remember the biggest brake for emergency stops is "Right hand out".......C ya..........Ray
I kinda figured mentioning that would get a reaction, so let me give you the details. Then let me know what you think.
That contractor hired me shortly after buying fifteen 631C’s and D’s of dubious quality to move a substantial amount of dirt in a short time. The big issue was the scraper hands hired; only three had prior scraper experience, and several had zero previous experience operating heavy equipment.
The job was simple; cut on a slope with two D10 push-cats; straight off the bottom of the slope about 1200’ was the fill. Haul road looped back up around the ridge to drop into the cut.
All but the experienced operators were shy of going fast coming out of the cut, and timid to hit the super on the fill with any speed, which was causing fast scraper hands to catch up with slow hands, and cause frustration because they couldn’t pass (I don’t allow passing on haul roads).
Scrapers were dropping off the top of the ridge into the cut and riding the brakes as they approached the push-cats, some staying on the brakes while getting pushed to try to control their speed, not experienced enough to know their can would keep them slow and in control. Then riding the brakes coming down out of the cut to try to keep their speed down.
I was catching heat from the mechanics due to the brake problems this was causing, or making worse, and the downtime. The push-cat hands were frustrated, and we were behind schedule.
I painted the brake pedals on Monday, made it clear to everyone that in this situation there was no reason to do anything but go fast. These guys just needed to keep a safe distance from the machine in front and MOVE. They could use their retarder and can do keep a controlled speed to drop into the cut, and then just fly right down to the fill and back.
The threat worked great and by Wednesday things had turned around and while we had to work a lot of hours to make deadline, maintenance issues declined, and things started running a lot smoother. A few of the operators even turned into halfway decent scraper hands. I kept painting pedals until we wrapped up that phase and it worked perfectly.
I wouldn’t recommend it to everyone, in every situation, but for me in that situation, it was exactly what was needed to get things on track.
Oh, and I had zero safety incidents on that job as well.
No need to fret the safety aspect of my operations either. In the nine years I spent as a Kiewit foreman/superintendent, I earned a merit award for 110,000 supervised accident-free manhours. I do take safety seriously, but safety and high production can run hand in hand with each other.
That contractor hired me shortly after buying fifteen 631C’s and D’s of dubious quality to move a substantial amount of dirt in a short time. The big issue was the scraper hands hired; only three had prior scraper experience, and several had zero previous experience operating heavy equipment.
The job was simple; cut on a slope with two D10 push-cats; straight off the bottom of the slope about 1200’ was the fill. Haul road looped back up around the ridge to drop into the cut.
All but the experienced operators were shy of going fast coming out of the cut, and timid to hit the super on the fill with any speed, which was causing fast scraper hands to catch up with slow hands, and cause frustration because they couldn’t pass (I don’t allow passing on haul roads).
Scrapers were dropping off the top of the ridge into the cut and riding the brakes as they approached the push-cats, some staying on the brakes while getting pushed to try to control their speed, not experienced enough to know their can would keep them slow and in control. Then riding the brakes coming down out of the cut to try to keep their speed down.
I was catching heat from the mechanics due to the brake problems this was causing, or making worse, and the downtime. The push-cat hands were frustrated, and we were behind schedule.
I painted the brake pedals on Monday, made it clear to everyone that in this situation there was no reason to do anything but go fast. These guys just needed to keep a safe distance from the machine in front and MOVE. They could use their retarder and can do keep a controlled speed to drop into the cut, and then just fly right down to the fill and back.
The threat worked great and by Wednesday things had turned around and while we had to work a lot of hours to make deadline, maintenance issues declined, and things started running a lot smoother. A few of the operators even turned into halfway decent scraper hands. I kept painting pedals until we wrapped up that phase and it worked perfectly.
I wouldn’t recommend it to everyone, in every situation, but for me in that situation, it was exactly what was needed to get things on track.
Oh, and I had zero safety incidents on that job as well.
No need to fret the safety aspect of my operations either. In the nine years I spent as a Kiewit foreman/superintendent, I earned a merit award for 110,000 supervised accident-free manhours. I do take safety seriously, but safety and high production can run hand in hand with each other.
As posted above, there are more theories on the "right" way to run a scraper spread than I know how to count. Part of this is due to different site conditions. Each technique has its place. Picking up scrapers with the scraper in 2nd gear is appropriate in good conditions, andwith consistent material, it is normal for the scraper to drag a few yards into the can on his own before the cat gets there, helps him slow down and makes things easy on all. Different methods depending on single, double, or even triple pushing. See ROP's post above. Yeager spreads are some of the most efficient around, using 2 and sometimes 3 D-9L or D-10N pushcats. 3 Cats shaves only a second or two from the load time, but the load is bigger, and not just from being piled on, but it is compacted into the can. 2 similar looking loads, one with 2 cats, one with 3, when weighed, will show about 2 to 3 CY more in the can with the extra cat. If they are making 120 loads per hour, the 3rd cat is worth an extra 240 to 360 cy per hour.
Al this goes out the window if you are in rock, or even worse, loose material with scattered boulders. Trying to run production like that in the rock will end up with cutting edge bolts sheared, floors peeled back, tire damage from the dozer when the scraper suddenly stops midway through your turn to catch it, and a host of other problems. In these conditions, I advise each scraper stopping and the dozer tagging up then load. I know its slow, but things stop completely when all the iron is broken. Sometimes, you can get away with making sure the scraper keeps the can up untill dozer is firmly tagged up, then dig in.
Al this goes out the window if you are in rock, or even worse, loose material with scattered boulders. Trying to run production like that in the rock will end up with cutting edge bolts sheared, floors peeled back, tire damage from the dozer when the scraper suddenly stops midway through your turn to catch it, and a host of other problems. In these conditions, I advise each scraper stopping and the dozer tagging up then load. I know its slow, but things stop completely when all the iron is broken. Sometimes, you can get away with making sure the scraper keeps the can up untill dozer is firmly tagged up, then dig in.
Lashlander
Senior Member
You guys crack me up, Who would have thought that something as simple as paint could be used to judge the competency of an operator? First it was scratches on excavator counter weights, then the backside of cutting edges. Now its the brake peddle.
I guess I'd better thank the owners of the company for keeping a hack like me on the payroll for the last 18 years!
I guess I'd better thank the owners of the company for keeping a hack like me on the payroll for the last 18 years!
MassX
Glad to see you clear that up. I know from your previous posts that you know what you are doing. The past few years have been tough running scraper spreads, with so much work and a shortage of experienced operators. Sometimes extreme measures had to be used to complete projects on time with the lack of experienced hands. I don't think we will have that problem again for a few years. I have a stack of applications a foot high of experienced operators out of work. If you can find a job, the people are available to get it done.
Glad to see you clear that up. I know from your previous posts that you know what you are doing. The past few years have been tough running scraper spreads, with so much work and a shortage of experienced operators. Sometimes extreme measures had to be used to complete projects on time with the lack of experienced hands. I don't think we will have that problem again for a few years. I have a stack of applications a foot high of experienced operators out of work. If you can find a job, the people are available to get it done.
Construct'O
Senior Member
How many of you have to run scrapers in muddy conditions???? Except for dry summers here we have to deal with mud most of the times.So running scrapers and pushcats in cuts that you can hardly get through empty sometimes is tuff.
Sometimes you have to skim the scraper half way throught he cut before you can get a load,because if you get to big a load before you get close to harder ground your stuck along with the pushcat.
So half a load it better then geting stuck,plus burying the pushcat gets nothing done.Not an easy task sometimes.
Most of the time you have to run the cut alot different then what i'm seeing of the post above.It's easy to run a cut when your working with dry dirt.
Mud cut you have to keep them so they will drain also which means sallow cuts and not how fast you can get a lot.More that you don't get stuck,then there isn't any production.
Shale and rock cuts and loading scrapers is also another situtation that you can't always keep selfloading.You have to stop and let the pushcat pick you up a lot of the times.Not always ,but you better not be spinning the tires trying to self load.That why you see those XXXXXXXX painted on the rims.Sometimes it's just common sense.
Running productive cuts isn't as easy as it looks in mud,shale,and rocky conditions.:drinkup:usa
Sometimes you have to skim the scraper half way throught he cut before you can get a load,because if you get to big a load before you get close to harder ground your stuck along with the pushcat.
So half a load it better then geting stuck,plus burying the pushcat gets nothing done.Not an easy task sometimes.
Most of the time you have to run the cut alot different then what i'm seeing of the post above.It's easy to run a cut when your working with dry dirt.
Mud cut you have to keep them so they will drain also which means sallow cuts and not how fast you can get a lot.More that you don't get stuck,then there isn't any production.
Shale and rock cuts and loading scrapers is also another situtation that you can't always keep selfloading.You have to stop and let the pushcat pick you up a lot of the times.Not always ,but you better not be spinning the tires trying to self load.That why you see those XXXXXXXX painted on the rims.Sometimes it's just common sense.
Running productive cuts isn't as easy as it looks in mud,shale,and rocky conditions.:drinkup:usa
Another good scoop thread, Ozscooper i worked with 13 of those 51,s and 4 - 5 of those 11,s you had on the M7 and the pushloading methods i saw really impressed me, the use of the dual tilt to crank the blade over and slewing onto the pushpad low and letting it roll up the blade was very fast and not a big hit at all and the lack of black smoke from the dozer exhaust shows how quickly they could get picked up and then punched out in 15 seconds in the real creamy stuff, was a pleasure to watch.
your spot on gavin the abi method works real well with the 11s and 51s real smooth once you get a hang of it. i need to try newer styles now that i dont have a nice 11 to push with.i keep gettin me arms all tangled up trying to slew and change gears and move the blade i really miss me finger tip steerin. my old 11 just had a birthday in sydney mate said it looks like new again, bit different to how she looked in the pics.
Dug Overburden
Well-Known Member
Hey, I know this is an old thread, if you go to you tube and put in 651 scraper, there are plenty of videos of Single engine scraper/push cats working. I have to favor the operators in Socal as the best, they are very effecient. The push cat Operators you see in France & Germany loading mostly 631's have a lot of learning to do.
Dug Overburden
Well-Known Member
Here's a link to one of Socal earthmovers videos of a D9L single pushing 651B's very effeciently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9BMRakDMKQ&feature=player_detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9BMRakDMKQ&feature=player_detailpage
Yeah, but Cat would not put it in there if the machine could not handle it. He is a very good pushcat op in my opinion. I think watching push pulls with good operators is how pushcat and single powers need to work, picking up on the run to keep the cycle going and in good order.
Buckethead
Senior Member
Maybe he was told to use 3rd? Maybe that contractor bids their jobs assuming they use 3rd? Seems like a smooth operation, one 651 pulls in just as another is pulling out of the cut.
Colorado Digger
Senior Member
very impressive
i do not know alot about these ops. mass ex with scrapers and push cats. my opinion would be that the outfit is very successfull. part of that is the operaters. i am sure an op. of this size has supervisors and boss men around frequently. if there was a problem with the speeds the cat operater is using i am sure they would make it aware to him. no reason to pick apart another operation. these guy's obviously know what they are doing and are sure moving the material efficiently.
my hat goes off to the cat hand, i am sure he is bushed after doing that 5-6 days a week.
regards. cd
i do not know alot about these ops. mass ex with scrapers and push cats. my opinion would be that the outfit is very successfull. part of that is the operaters. i am sure an op. of this size has supervisors and boss men around frequently. if there was a problem with the speeds the cat operater is using i am sure they would make it aware to him. no reason to pick apart another operation. these guy's obviously know what they are doing and are sure moving the material efficiently.
my hat goes off to the cat hand, i am sure he is bushed after doing that 5-6 days a week.
regards. cd
All contractors are willing to sacrifice something at the detriment of something else, the key is to know those limitations and walk the tightrope in order to maximise profit and move the dirt for the lowest cost per cube. While 3rd gear can look like a cowboy running it this guy does a good job. There is another vid Kenny has posted with this guy running a C27 repowered D10N and he is punching out 2 651B,s per minute, now most dirt contractors bid on 50 minute hours so 100 51 loads an hour is really moving the dirt!!
Colorado Digger
Senior Member
fftopic
after hearing directly from my father who has done major infrastrucure projects in china. you may want to learn how to move dirt before commenting and posting a link that has nothing to do with our conversation
ointhead:usa:usa:usa
Mod edit - yeah CD another spammer bites the dust..:guns
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JimBruce42
Senior Member
Gavin/Mass-X
You both seem to know scraper operations inside and out. Personally I have never run in a pan fleet like this, they are all by a thing of the past around here, so forgive me if this is a stupid question. The rate the 651's are coming in at justifies, to me anyway, reversing in 3rd gear (one of the few times you'll hear me say that), but if he was in 2nd to push them, wouldn't the pans be able to take a deeper bite and get more packed load into the bowl in a relatively similar time?
You both seem to know scraper operations inside and out. Personally I have never run in a pan fleet like this, they are all by a thing of the past around here, so forgive me if this is a stupid question. The rate the 651's are coming in at justifies, to me anyway, reversing in 3rd gear (one of the few times you'll hear me say that), but if he was in 2nd to push them, wouldn't the pans be able to take a deeper bite and get more packed load into the bowl in a relatively similar time?