rshackleford
Senior Member
a great point but i don't think my machines have this option. i would tend to think that faster cycle times even if the bucket isn't quite as full would probably get more footage.
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How to dig a ditch fast?
- Thread starter rshackleford
- Start date
a great point but i don't think my machines have this option. i would tend to think that faster cycle times even if the bucket isn't quite as full would probably get more footage.
Bumpus
Well-Known Member
.
Some people can not operate every machine the same as others.
I have a friend who liked to run an old
580 Case Rubber tired Backhoe with 3 leavers,
and he was good and quick at it.
But when he ran a John Deere 310 with the 2 wobble stick leavers he was faster.
I asked him about it and he said he still would rather run the Case any day,
because that was what he broke in on.
My self I was just the opposite because I learned on the John Deer which I could operate much smother, but I did not like the case with 3 sticks
and foot operated swings.
Did not like a Cat backhoe in those day because the leavers were backwards from John Deere, and it was harder to get use to so I was slower on it.
Many people have a preference and some equipment handles a little easier.
.
Some people can not operate every machine the same as others.
I have a friend who liked to run an old
580 Case Rubber tired Backhoe with 3 leavers,
and he was good and quick at it.
But when he ran a John Deere 310 with the 2 wobble stick leavers he was faster.
I asked him about it and he said he still would rather run the Case any day,
because that was what he broke in on.
My self I was just the opposite because I learned on the John Deer which I could operate much smother, but I did not like the case with 3 sticks
and foot operated swings.
Did not like a Cat backhoe in those day because the leavers were backwards from John Deere, and it was harder to get use to so I was slower on it.
Many people have a preference and some equipment handles a little easier.
.
stumpjumper83
Senior Member
Lets look at all aspects involved. Machines, operator, laborer, & obstructions. Try a week of recording that data. Look for conflict between operator and laborer, # of utility crossings. Try trading operators around and see if one particular machine is at fault. It could be a cell Issue, but I wouldn't leave guys out in the middle of a prarrie digging without one. Next thing you know there will be an emergency.
Oh, and post videos of them all operating, with as many eyes as are on here we might be able to tell something.
Btw, what machines are they running?
Oh, and post videos of them all operating, with as many eyes as are on here we might be able to tell something.
Btw, what machines are they running?
rshackleford
Senior Member
on previous jobs we used pc 300-7's with success, but then we got a volvo ec 330 and it was a hog and out did all the komatsu's. on this job we are digging with ec-330 excavators. we only have two crews on this job so i am relating back to previous experience and other crews and operators for some of my this is what you can get per day/hour data. one machine is running a 48" bucket with six esco super v 39 sdx teeth. the other one was running a "trencher fang" but it has not at all been successful so it will go to work Monday with a 36" bucket with four esco super v 43 sdx teeth. i have found that over the long haul the sdx profile tooth outlasts the others.
digger242j
Administrator
If you're referring to me, I did read every word, several times.
Recall also, that I said I don't know you and that I wasn't accusing you of not wanting to work hard, but that what you said there was consistent with the kind of things that have come from the mouths of the guys who weren't always pulling their weight. If you personally have produced better results than those guys, then we shouldn't have a problem.
I'll stand by what I posted. I have a problem with some of the things you said, for the reasons I described. If you meant something different than what I read; if going into more detail would clear things up, we can discuss it in another thread, rather than getting more off topic in this one.
Galute
Well-Known Member
Since we're on the subject of what was said. I remember more than once the OP stated safety was not an issue. BS.. Safety is always an issue. Take a look at what the operators production is. If they are good operators, the job will be done right even if it takes a little longer. OSHA is not gonna walk on your job and shut you down because of them. Just because you think you are not gonna put anyone in the ditch does not relieve you of digging it so someone can get in it. Sorry, it's OHSA's decision, not yours. How long do you think it's gonna take to dig those ditches if OSHA walks on your job and says turn em off? Tell it to the judge.
SE-Ia Cowman
Well-Known Member
Training
I went to a LICA land improvment contractors asc field day last year and deere had a training system set up for excavators it was realy just a simulator with joystick controls travle pedals and a pc it had 7 or 8 different tasks but each one showed your efficenty on the screen all the time like % of bucket it was advanced enugh to figure end of day proffit % for the opperator and machine damage such as grouser damage from bucket contact. I think it was 8 or 10 grand but at $39 hr for opperator it might be something to look at for winter training it could pay for is self in pretty short order.
I went to a LICA land improvment contractors asc field day last year and deere had a training system set up for excavators it was realy just a simulator with joystick controls travle pedals and a pc it had 7 or 8 different tasks but each one showed your efficenty on the screen all the time like % of bucket it was advanced enugh to figure end of day proffit % for the opperator and machine damage such as grouser damage from bucket contact. I think it was 8 or 10 grand but at $39 hr for opperator it might be something to look at for winter training it could pay for is self in pretty short order.
oceanobob
Senior Member
wear and tear on machine vs production
A superintendent for a company doing a big pipeline job outlined it like this:
first the spoils pile has to end up free of the ditch (mitigation of surcharge)
second the edge of the ditch has to be free of clods
a rhythm or pattern of movements has to be developed as to when to break open the surface, where to place the spoils and stack em, when to kick the clods in the ditch, etc.
third the owner of the machine has to stipulate if the goal is to (A) dig as much as possible which may involve longer loading and bucket packing techniques, including what they termed 'plowing', or (B) if these movements subject the machine (eg the amount of hydraulic pressure, the duration the pressure is applied, the effect on the pins, and as well the effects on the tracks of the machine if an excavator.. then perhaps the 'daily quota' is lessened to enhance the life of the machine.
On this job, it was clear they wanted the machine life to be held in high esteem so they would make time in other ways such as have the foreman or relief operator run the machine at lunch and on bathroom breaks.
For the majority of the digging, the basic tenet was to enter the ditch and have the bucket teeth ready and the bucket was to be rolled around its heel and the operator was to use the weight of the machine's boom to help the ripping out of the soil to load the bucket...as soon as the bucket was full via this biting technique, the bucket was to be pulled clear and no plowing or excessive duration was to be done. The bucket was kept modestly close to the machine as I recall. They weren't too worried about machine movements in the air, only the engagement time and technique.
I could understand where different soil types effect the manner but since the forum did not indicate the possibility of tradeoffs - machine life for the production rate - I wanted to provide this insight as best as I could relay it on.
A superintendent for a company doing a big pipeline job outlined it like this:
first the spoils pile has to end up free of the ditch (mitigation of surcharge)
second the edge of the ditch has to be free of clods
a rhythm or pattern of movements has to be developed as to when to break open the surface, where to place the spoils and stack em, when to kick the clods in the ditch, etc.
third the owner of the machine has to stipulate if the goal is to (A) dig as much as possible which may involve longer loading and bucket packing techniques, including what they termed 'plowing', or (B) if these movements subject the machine (eg the amount of hydraulic pressure, the duration the pressure is applied, the effect on the pins, and as well the effects on the tracks of the machine if an excavator.. then perhaps the 'daily quota' is lessened to enhance the life of the machine.
On this job, it was clear they wanted the machine life to be held in high esteem so they would make time in other ways such as have the foreman or relief operator run the machine at lunch and on bathroom breaks.
For the majority of the digging, the basic tenet was to enter the ditch and have the bucket teeth ready and the bucket was to be rolled around its heel and the operator was to use the weight of the machine's boom to help the ripping out of the soil to load the bucket...as soon as the bucket was full via this biting technique, the bucket was to be pulled clear and no plowing or excessive duration was to be done. The bucket was kept modestly close to the machine as I recall. They weren't too worried about machine movements in the air, only the engagement time and technique.
I could understand where different soil types effect the manner but since the forum did not indicate the possibility of tradeoffs - machine life for the production rate - I wanted to provide this insight as best as I could relay it on.
I hate and embarass people like you. Bad thing is there alot of your type around better to not even allow you on site.
digger242j
Administrator
oceanobob said:
Thanks. Good summary. :notworthy
Hendrik
Senior Member
others have probably answered this but what you are experiencing is hard soil and soft soil, when you get an easy bucket load you are pulling out soil that has been loosened already and when the going gets hard you are digging into virgin soil, basically it is part of digging, some buckets will be easier than others.
Another helpful hint to maximising your ditch digging productivity.
If you look at the configuration of your boom, dipper and bucket crowd angles you will notice that there are certain sections of the stroke of each of the rams powering these components where there is a zone of maximum mechanical advantage. It is often, but not always, in the middle of the stroke and the relativity of these three components and their mechanical advantage needs to be synchronised for maximum digging power and productivity.
In soft soil this is not such an important factor but in harder soils it can make a big difference. Just by moving your excavator/backhoe strategically you can make sure you are always in the zone of maximum power and productivity of your machine.
Try it out on a suitable trench and see for yourself if you dig at maximum reach, mid reach and close in, where the most power and productivity is. Good operators get to know this by feel and it's one of the reasons why they are good. An operator who has little feel for his machine or the soil, is harder to train to be productive because of this.
AusDave
If you look at the configuration of your boom, dipper and bucket crowd angles you will notice that there are certain sections of the stroke of each of the rams powering these components where there is a zone of maximum mechanical advantage. It is often, but not always, in the middle of the stroke and the relativity of these three components and their mechanical advantage needs to be synchronised for maximum digging power and productivity.
In soft soil this is not such an important factor but in harder soils it can make a big difference. Just by moving your excavator/backhoe strategically you can make sure you are always in the zone of maximum power and productivity of your machine.
Try it out on a suitable trench and see for yourself if you dig at maximum reach, mid reach and close in, where the most power and productivity is. Good operators get to know this by feel and it's one of the reasons why they are good. An operator who has little feel for his machine or the soil, is harder to train to be productive because of this.
AusDave
Hendrik
Senior Member
Yes this is a better way of describing what I was trying to say, basically if you are digging trough even soil you need to 'cut' a certain amount every time. Try and take too much you will slow down the cycle because the machine is trying to dig through too much and take too little you will end up with half or 3/4 bucket fulls.
Obviously if you dig through variable soil/rocks, this will be harder to do and you may have to make a couple of scrapes to get a full bucket.
Basically what you are trying to do is make the machine be as productive as it can be.
This is a very difficult question to answer without being able to demonstrate the techniques I would recommend. In my opinion there are too many things to list (if listed in detail) that seperate the men from the boys. If your operators are competetive in nature, concerened with getting maximum efficiency without sacrificing machine life or job site safety, and can be depended on to give you an honest days work for an honest days pay, than I think this is a winning combination. These types of employees will figure out how to be productive in whatever situation you stick them in. If you have this type of employee I would like to hire them. I find it harder and harder to find good employees. In the video, that was offered in a previous post, I can find many things that that operator is doing that are wasting time and efficiency. If I had to offer a few tips it would be these:
1) The angle of the teeth will always be adjusted to suit the resistance that the dirt is giving (which usually varies along the trench bottom). As a general rule the tips of the teeth will be the leading edge so the angle will be fairly aggressive. The steeper the angle the better the penetration (to a point). DO NOT over rotate the bucket. This will only make the machine work harder (the heel of the bucket is not very sharp so it tales a lot of energy to try to drive it through the dirt), and accomplishes nothing except wear out the heel of the bucket, waste time, and fuel. The digging cycle is the blending of crowd, curl, and boom to fill the bucket in a manner that does not "force" the bucket through the dirt. A good analogy (from the "nail bangers" hand book) is to let the tool do the work. If you are using a lot of crowd force to make the bucket go through the dirt than you are not using the correct technique. This is not a huge problem in the middle of a field, but it will lead to broken obstructions, if you encounter them, and irregular grade at the trench bottom. A good operator can feel how hard the machine should be working, and blending all the functions to keep it in the "sweet spot" is part of the art of digging.
2) Do not over fill the bucket. The bucket should be brought to the spoil pile as soon as it is filled. Many operators will continue to crowd even after the bucket is full (out of habit I guess). On an excavator, the bucket should be filled just about the point at which the operator must boom down to continue to fill the bucket. Once the boom begins to go down (on the bucket fill cycle) you are losing efficiency.
3) When exiting the trench the crowd should be moving out at the same time as the boom is coming up. Crowd out will continue until the bucket has been extended all the way to the beginning of the cut. When I begin my upward cycle I will begin with boom up priority, and then blend to crowd out priority. If the material is sticky or does not evacuate the bucket fast enough, I will give the crowd a "jerk" to help persuade the dirt to leave the bucket. As I begin the return cycle the swing has priority, and I will blend to crowd out, and then boom down priority. When done correctly the casual observer will see one fluid motion. Many times you will see the operator move the crowd back towards the machine (when returning to the trench after dumping) just to extend it back out once they are over the trench. This is a wasted motion. This can be (for many) a hard habit to break. It takes patience and discipline to get the correct motion down. Crowding out while booming down can be used to take energy away from the swing and transfer it into a downward motion. It can make the transition smoother. In time a good operator will modulate his controls to make all his transitions smooth (in the manor I just described).
5) Different circumstances will require different techniques. Digging in rock is different than digging in loam. Digging in a field will be different than digging in the street. I'm sure you get the picture.
If the operator is working at maximum efficiency (correct digging angles, and proper techniques) the tractor will not be over worked.
When I am digging I usually don't think much about technique anymore. I don't think about what my hands are doing. My machine has become an extension of myself, so my thoughts are only to what I want the machine to do. This frees up my mind to think ahead and think about specific job circumstances and possible obstructions or issues that may need to be addressed. The exception to this is if I have to run a machine that I am not familiar with, or that employs a pattern that I am not accustomed to (BTW, CAT controls rule!).
After a while it all just comes naturally.
BTW, I am very competitive. I have learned to use this to my advantage. I want to be the best operator (or whatever I am doing) I can be. This means more than just being fast. It means digging the most, best, and safest trench while not breaking anything. I want to be the best employee (though I am now self employed), or, as is the case now, the best contractor/vendor, I can be. This competitive nature is what makes capitolism survive, and it probably can be argued that it boils down to a basic instinct that Darwin had a theory on.
If only I could spell.
1) The angle of the teeth will always be adjusted to suit the resistance that the dirt is giving (which usually varies along the trench bottom). As a general rule the tips of the teeth will be the leading edge so the angle will be fairly aggressive. The steeper the angle the better the penetration (to a point). DO NOT over rotate the bucket. This will only make the machine work harder (the heel of the bucket is not very sharp so it tales a lot of energy to try to drive it through the dirt), and accomplishes nothing except wear out the heel of the bucket, waste time, and fuel. The digging cycle is the blending of crowd, curl, and boom to fill the bucket in a manner that does not "force" the bucket through the dirt. A good analogy (from the "nail bangers" hand book) is to let the tool do the work. If you are using a lot of crowd force to make the bucket go through the dirt than you are not using the correct technique. This is not a huge problem in the middle of a field, but it will lead to broken obstructions, if you encounter them, and irregular grade at the trench bottom. A good operator can feel how hard the machine should be working, and blending all the functions to keep it in the "sweet spot" is part of the art of digging.
2) Do not over fill the bucket. The bucket should be brought to the spoil pile as soon as it is filled. Many operators will continue to crowd even after the bucket is full (out of habit I guess). On an excavator, the bucket should be filled just about the point at which the operator must boom down to continue to fill the bucket. Once the boom begins to go down (on the bucket fill cycle) you are losing efficiency.
3) When exiting the trench the crowd should be moving out at the same time as the boom is coming up. Crowd out will continue until the bucket has been extended all the way to the beginning of the cut. When I begin my upward cycle I will begin with boom up priority, and then blend to crowd out priority. If the material is sticky or does not evacuate the bucket fast enough, I will give the crowd a "jerk" to help persuade the dirt to leave the bucket. As I begin the return cycle the swing has priority, and I will blend to crowd out, and then boom down priority. When done correctly the casual observer will see one fluid motion. Many times you will see the operator move the crowd back towards the machine (when returning to the trench after dumping) just to extend it back out once they are over the trench. This is a wasted motion. This can be (for many) a hard habit to break. It takes patience and discipline to get the correct motion down. Crowding out while booming down can be used to take energy away from the swing and transfer it into a downward motion. It can make the transition smoother. In time a good operator will modulate his controls to make all his transitions smooth (in the manor I just described).
5) Different circumstances will require different techniques. Digging in rock is different than digging in loam. Digging in a field will be different than digging in the street. I'm sure you get the picture.
If the operator is working at maximum efficiency (correct digging angles, and proper techniques) the tractor will not be over worked.
When I am digging I usually don't think much about technique anymore. I don't think about what my hands are doing. My machine has become an extension of myself, so my thoughts are only to what I want the machine to do. This frees up my mind to think ahead and think about specific job circumstances and possible obstructions or issues that may need to be addressed. The exception to this is if I have to run a machine that I am not familiar with, or that employs a pattern that I am not accustomed to (BTW, CAT controls rule!).
After a while it all just comes naturally.
BTW, I am very competitive. I have learned to use this to my advantage. I want to be the best operator (or whatever I am doing) I can be. This means more than just being fast. It means digging the most, best, and safest trench while not breaking anything. I want to be the best employee (though I am now self employed), or, as is the case now, the best contractor/vendor, I can be. This competitive nature is what makes capitolism survive, and it probably can be argued that it boils down to a basic instinct that Darwin had a theory on.
If only I could spell.
Last edited:
rshackleford
Senior Member
wow. great comments.
i would like to clarify my stance on safety. safety is important but in a different way then if you have men working in the trench. we stress things like stay out of the machine swing radius, wear a hard hat, wear steel toes, know your heat limitations, know how to lift properly, avoid pinch points, know what utilities are upcoming, be careful when working near overhead lines, do not enter a straight wall trench. all of these safety things are important. the fact is we don't enter a straight wall trench so stepping, shoring, and boxing are not really an issue for us. we have a work to do in the ditch less than one percent of the time. when that one percent comes around then speed goes out the door and its time to be careful and deliberate about planning the excavation. on the other ninety-nine percent of the time it is a non occupied excavation and its time to blow and go. it is a little bit like running a trencher as far as the trench construction and occupancy goes. so safety is an issue just not in the respect that most of you who are working in the streets are accustom to.
i think there has been some great discussion hear and i feel i am learning a lot from the thread. thanks again.
i would like to clarify my stance on safety. safety is important but in a different way then if you have men working in the trench. we stress things like stay out of the machine swing radius, wear a hard hat, wear steel toes, know your heat limitations, know how to lift properly, avoid pinch points, know what utilities are upcoming, be careful when working near overhead lines, do not enter a straight wall trench. all of these safety things are important. the fact is we don't enter a straight wall trench so stepping, shoring, and boxing are not really an issue for us. we have a work to do in the ditch less than one percent of the time. when that one percent comes around then speed goes out the door and its time to be careful and deliberate about planning the excavation. on the other ninety-nine percent of the time it is a non occupied excavation and its time to blow and go. it is a little bit like running a trencher as far as the trench construction and occupancy goes. so safety is an issue just not in the respect that most of you who are working in the streets are accustom to.
i think there has been some great discussion hear and i feel i am learning a lot from the thread. thanks again.
rshackleford
Senior Member
i have been watching the crews even more closely and have come to a conclusion: there might just be natural operators that can get footage.
i took one of the "veterans" off of the cleanup crew yesterday and had him dig. he easily tied our best daily footage in nine hours versus the other diggers ten hours. the strange thing is he digs differently than everyone else. he used to take his entire bucket slam it into the trench and wiggle his bucket until it was full. no croud no boom, just wiggle it till it got full. this was of course not very fast. i can't remember how he enters the ditch because i was so surprised how he finishes his stroke. he has the bucket almost completely curled up and is dragging the heal for about five feet. Absolutely counter productive yet he turned in better footage than anyone yet!
i took one of the "veterans" off of the cleanup crew yesterday and had him dig. he easily tied our best daily footage in nine hours versus the other diggers ten hours. the strange thing is he digs differently than everyone else. he used to take his entire bucket slam it into the trench and wiggle his bucket until it was full. no croud no boom, just wiggle it till it got full. this was of course not very fast. i can't remember how he enters the ditch because i was so surprised how he finishes his stroke. he has the bucket almost completely curled up and is dragging the heal for about five feet. Absolutely counter productive yet he turned in better footage than anyone yet!
drwroto
Member
One of the best operators I have known used to train people by letting them dig about 100 feet, then he gave them a shovel to clean up the ditch.
The most important thing is not how fast you are, but that you make good ditch. There are times when the ditch doesn't matter, but it does't take any longer to make good ditch when you are used to it.
Increase your speed as you become more confident. Generally, don't lift out of the ditch without a full bucket. Plan where the spoil pile will work best.
The most important thing is not how fast you are, but that you make good ditch. There are times when the ditch doesn't matter, but it does't take any longer to make good ditch when you are used to it.
Increase your speed as you become more confident. Generally, don't lift out of the ditch without a full bucket. Plan where the spoil pile will work best.
gmjones420
New Member
just pull the sticks and watch and you will learn something new everyday