D9G or D9H - What do you recommend?

[Passionhawk1]

I would be dubious of repairs mentioned in their ads without documentation, maybe even then. I think an engine or transmission should be good for 12-15 thousand hours.

Really - that many hours? That's amazing! I had no idea. As for the repairs, that's very good advice. If they don't have service records then, it's best to take a pass. Thank you so much for responding.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell

 

[CDUB]

As far as fair market value, that is really tricky. It depends on the condition of the machine. I suggest going and physically viewing as many machines as you can. Go see some really high priced units and some bargain basement junk. You'll start to see the difference.
I think in your case, the condition of the undercarriage is probably the most important factor. It's the biggest expense on the machine and it's easy to evaluate.
Use your best guess and what information you have available to get a tractor with good internals. I wouldn't trust hours or hour meters on a machine over 10 years old.

 

[CDUB]

If you find a particular machine you are interested in, your Cat PSR can run a check on the serial# and provide what history is available in Cat's system. If repairs have been done by Cat they will show up which may give some clue on the component history.

 

[Passionhawk1]

As far as fair market value, that is really tricky. It depends on the condition of the machine. I suggest going and physically viewing as many machines as you can. Go see some really high priced units and some bargain basement junk. You'll start to see the difference.
I think in your case, the condition of the undercarriage is probably the most important factor. It's the biggest expense on the machine and it's easy to evaluate.
Use your best guess and what information you have available to get a tractor with good internals. I wouldn't trust hours or hour meters on a machine over 10 years old.

You know, that's a great idea about looking over a lot of machines. There's a place about three hours away that has over 30+ used tractors for sale. Great idea!

Even those listed on the internet, I have already begun to recognize a thin chain, a chain with uneven wear or sculpted edges, sprockets with chunks missing out of the teeth and those with very thin teeth. Another thing I look at is the slack in the track and how far the tension adjuster is pushed forward. I look for leaks around the final drives and grease marks around everything including the hydraulics. What else do you look for when examining a Cat? How can you tell if the rollers and the idlers are good? You can't see the rail - or at least I can't see the rails in the pictures.

Something else is pride of ownership. If I see a sloppy tractor that's torn up inside, I have to assume that the person who owned it had little regard for the value of his equipment. Small deal - true but still, it's a good sign of what might have gone on with the rest of the tractor. I've seen some beautiful older tractors with the original paint. Yes, they are faded and have a few minor dings and scrapes but you can clearly see that someone cared enough to keep them up.

These are good suggestions. Thank you so much!

 

[Passionhawk1]

If you find a particular machine you are interested in, your Cat PSR can run a check on the serial# and provide what history is available in Cat's system. If repairs have been done by Cat they will show up which may give some clue on the component history.

Really? I assumed Cat would just as soon give a rat's behind less about the used market. They're trying to sell new iron - not help little guys like me find a good used tractor. Am I right or wrong in that assumption? Do they have a database of Cat-authorized repairs? That would be something - if they let that sort of information out.

Of course, I just saw an ad for a tractor that said it had a "complete Cat authorized rebuild" with zero hours. The exhaust manifold was cracked and open, the chains were scraped and sculpted and there was black grease-dirt on the engine. Made me laugh. I'm not a mechanic but common sense tells you that the first thing you'd do before an overhaul would be to steam-clean the engine.

 

[Nige]

A few comments in no particular order on what's been posted since I last replied.........

1. In the depressed market that exists these days any Cat dealer simply wants to make sales. New or used it doesn't matter to them, they want to shift iron. The a$$ has fallen out of mining which is where the easy bucks were always made sales-wise, so now they have to earn their commission by being more flexible.
2. Regarding Certified (as opposed to "authorized", whatever that is) Rebuilds go back to my post #22 on Page 2 and check out the photos. That's a Certified Rebuild, no ifs buts or maybes.
3. Our mining tractors went 15-16000 hours on original components (apart from undercarriage) before they went off for the Certified Rebuild Process. They were working 24/7/365 so that amounted to being about 3 years old when they went for rebuild. I'd guess they will get a 2nd rebuild at 6 years and possibly a 3rd as well before being pensioned off. Total machine life would be in the region of 60k hours by which time the frame (chassis) would most likely be starting to get a bit tired.
4. Any machine that has been on more than a single-shift operation will have had multiple operators and that tends to show in terms of the cab interior being pretty well torn up. Done's mean to say the machine itself is in a bad state though.

 

[StanRUS]

A few comments in no particular order on what's been posted since I last replied.........

1. In the depressed market that exists these days any Cat dealer simply wants to make sales. New or used it doesn't matter to them, they want to shift iron. The a$$ has fallen out of mining which is where the easy bucks were always made sales-wise, so now they have to earn their commission by being more flexible.
2. Regarding Certified (as opposed to "authorized", whatever that is) Rebuilds go back to my post #22 on Page 2 and check out the photos. That's a Certified Rebuild, no ifs buts or maybes.
3. Our mining tractors went 15-16000 hours on original components (apart from undercarriage) before they went off for the Certified Rebuild Process. They were working 24/7/365 so that amounted to being about 3 years old when they went for rebuild. I'd guess they will get a 2nd rebuild at 6 years and possibly a 3rd as well before being pensioned off. Total machine life would be in the region of 60k hours by which time the frame (chassis) would most likely be starting to get a bit tired.
4. Any machine that has been on more than a single-shift operation will have had multiple operators and that tends to show in terms of the cab interior being pretty well torn up. Done's mean to say the machine itself is in a bad state though.

Why Scraping machines...root cause EPA Air Quality Regulations, i.e. diesel (gasoline, all petrol-based fuels) exhaust and crankcase particle emissions; if the States receive Federal Highway Funding they have too comply with the EPA Regulations.
Non-Electronic engines with mechanically controlled fuel systems are Tier0, we’re at Tier4 Final now. How the EPA Air Quality Regulations affect Nevada small scale mining operation (low annual hour machine usage), I’ve no idea. I would investigate before purchasing any machines that could have regulatory usage issues!

 

[lantraxco]

Two Questions - bring me up to speed. Off-road diesel in the US is red and can be purchased for less because it doesn't have the road tax added on. What is "black fuel"? Never heard that terminology.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell

Back then CAT equipment was expected to operate in remote and primitive areas, where oil was perhaps not so well refined, and the less refined grades were probably cheaper. #3 which is typically no longer available and #4 fuel oil are a mix of both lighter and heavier components and will provide more btu's. I seem to recall CAT provided timing corrections for the heavier fuel types? One of you OLD cat guys have that information? LOL.

 

[Jonas302]

Cat dealers are usually strong in the used market they would be glad to look up machine history tell your salesman that your looking to spend money and he might buy you lunch(; So you can hash out some ideas some of these guys are real good and familiar with your soils and similar operations
Catused.com has some ripper tractors

 

[Passionhawk1]

Gentlemen:

I came into this forum as a newbie with the idea in my head that I needed to buy either a D9G or H because they were big, they had 4-barrel rippers and they were well within my budget. Man, did I get a wonderful education. I thought I knew some basics about tractors - hah! Turns out I didn't know diddly-squat compared to most of you. I am grateful and honored that you shared your ideas, your opinions and your knowledge. So what am I going to do?

One member mentioned in private that if he were me, he'd rent a CAT for a week, doze and scrape around the property to see what works and doesn't work in my soil conditions. Moreover, he suggested I put the machine to good use and stockpile some material to be processed while I decide which machine would be best to purchase. I will try to rent a older D8 (if that's possible) with a three-shank ripper bar with three tines. If it does the work like a piece of cake, then I can consider down-sizing or upsizing, depending on the results.

It was also suggested I check out a few used tractors. I have started to do that and already, can start to pick-out the wheat from the chaff. I've been a bit reluctant to contact the local CAT dealer until I have a couple more weeks of looking around under my belt. Not-with-standing, I'll give 'er a go and expect great results from the effort. Always gotta think positive.

Wow. I learned about black fuel. I learned that the older D9s are thirsty critters that are prone to suck a man's wallet right out of his pants. We have a few legal bordellos here in Nevada with charming ladies that will do the same thing! I found out that older D9s were not exactly celebrated for their propensity to rip. Seems the apparatus sometimes liked to snap the bolts off the back or crack the rear axle housing. I learned a new mining terminology from Scrub Puller in Australia called "scrape and beep" which is to take just a few inches off the ground at a time (scrape) and then run over it with a metal detector (beep) to check for gold.

I know that in California, those poor buggers have had to contend with the EPA, the Air Quality Board and flaming environmentalists that are more numerous than rattlesnakes in Texas. In Nevada? Well, Nevada is and has always been "miner friendly." If the property was in a populous county such as Clark County in the south (Las Vegas) or Washoe County in the north (Reno-Sparks), then emissions would be of concern. I'm so far out that the antelope gather by the roadside once a week to play a game of pinocle to see if a car will drive by. None-the-less, that was an excellent caution that I will not ignore. Thank you, StanRUS.

Nige, you called it like it is. No doubt I'm not the only forum member who has grown wiser from your excellent advice. Damn the EPA. Nige says I want to buy a tractor that pre-dates the new computer-controlled models. Works for me! CDUB, Jonas, Lantraxco, mht1156, Clintm and Delmer, thank you all for your good advice and counsel. I've written it all down behind my ear in the memory banks and I'll put it to good use. I'll be back from time to time to ask more dumb questions and get additional direction on which way to go. Meanwhile, I'll close for now and ask one final question on this particular thread:

So how'd you guys like the debate?

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

Gotcha there Passionhawk1. I think I and all folks who participated in the discussion appreciate your considered reply and most would be interested to see what you come up with in the weeks to come.

Please update your thread if possible and as always some pictures of the operation would be nice. It sounds a sensible plan to rent a machine to determine what works for you.

The moderators frown on political discussion so I can't really comment on the last query except to say that even down here in Australia it does seem to come up in conversation. (grins)

All the best with it.

Cheers.

 

[Passionhawk1]

Hey Scrub Puller:

I just threw that in because I knew it would get everyone laughing. I can assure you, in comes up in conversations a lot here too.

Yes, I'll throw in some pix if they allow that.

While I have your attention, what is a DIRECT DRIVE Cat and how does it differ from a CAT that is not direct drive?

 

[repowerguy]

When you all began talking about black fuel, I at first thought of used motor oil as a fuel. Dad told me back in the "day" when they changed oil in the old TD's that they put it in the fuel tank then filled it up with diesel fuel. He said that the old operators manuals told you to do exactly that, IH was "green" before it was even heard of!
Direct drive is a gear banger trans with a clutch, and no torque converter.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

Direct drive (as we call it here) is a machine that has no torque converter or fluid drive between the engine and transmission . . . that is to say just a clutch on the back of the engine driving into a multi speed manually shifted gearbox.

Over the years Caterpillar and other manufacturers have offered variations on the theme. Allis Chalmers for instance arranged a clutch to drive a torque converter which drove into a two speed and reverse manually shifted transmission. . . Caterpillar tried the same caper with less success as torque converters worked better at twenty one hundred revs than they did at twelve hundred.

Then of course Cat bought out the three speed power-shift which became the industry standard.

Direct drive still has an application in agricultural and root ploughing tractors as they are more efficient and tend to run cooler without the heat loads of torque converter and hydraulic transmission.

Personally I like them as the machines are responsive and agile and a different beast entirely to power shift.

Cheers.

 

[Passionhawk1]

Yair . . .

Direct drive (as we call it here) is a machine that has no torque converter or fluid drive between the engine and transmission . . . that is to say just a clutch on the back of the engine driving into a multi speed manually shifted gearbox.

Over the years Caterpillar and other manufacturers have offered variations on the theme. Allis Chalmers for instance arranged a clutch to drive a torque converter which drove into a two speed and reverse manually shifted transmission. . . Caterpillar tried the same caper with less success as torque converters worked better at twenty one hundred revs than they did at twelve hundred.

Then of course Cat bought out the three speed power-shift which became the industry standard.

Direct drive still has an application in agricultural and root ploughing tractors as they are more efficient and tend to run cooler without the heat loads of torque converter and hydraulic transmission.

Personally I like them as the machines are responsive and agile and a different beast entirely to power shift.

Cheers.

So let me tell you, what you describe is precisely how the first gas CAT I operated was shifted. You had a clutch lever on the left and a regular stick shift transmission. No clutch on the floor - all with the left hand clutch. Wouldn't that be more fuel efficient to have a direct drive like that? As I recall, you started to ease into it with the clutch so you didn't lurch the tractor. When you felt it start to grab, you'd push through quickly so it didn't burn the clutch. When I first learned, I remember heading for a 40' vertical embankment and I started stomping the floor with my left foot to disengage the transmission - but there was nooooooo pedal. Yesssireeee! I pulled both frictions all the way back in my lap and found the brake. Dang near went off the bank. Totally forgot about the clutch. My dad was sitting next to me. He was trying to learn to operate by watching me. He turned, gave me the "look" and boy I didn't make that mistake again. I'm sure he was putting pucker marks in the seat just like I was doing - hah.

So I can see where the TC is far more forgiving. I don't like to lurch a vehicle before I bring it to a stop anyway so yeah . . . . a speed shift would be in order. Do the newer direct drive Cats use a foot or a hand clutch?

Heck, I bought an old long-nose White Western Star 10 yard dump truck a few years back to build road on the ranch and I loved it. Five speed transmission and a 3-speed brownie. Man, I was shiftin' gears like a tree full of owls and hadn't traveled but half a block. That old truck didn't have synchromesh gears. They were square and let me tell you - if you threw a shift and missed, that &^%$#@)+@ truck would make you the sorriest sucker that ever walked the face of the earth. Only way to get her back in gear was to come to a complete stop and start over. I did that a time or two in an intersection until I got it down pat. That's when you start sweating bullets in traffic. Horns blowin' - people yelling and giving you the finger and you're there talkin' to the truck. Yup, done that.

So is a direct-drive to be embraced or avoided? For what I'm doing, there's no timetable. I guess shifting back and forth four times on every round trip would get old after awhile but frankly, I love to operate equipment. As we all know, some people have no knack for it. Myself, the more I can do the better I like it.

Thanks so much! - jm

 

[Passionhawk1]

When you all began talking about black fuel, I at first thought of used motor oil as a fuel. Dad told me back in the "day" when they changed oil in the old TD's that they put it in the fuel tank then filled it up with diesel fuel. He said that the old operators manuals told you to do exactly that, IH was "green" before it was even heard of!
Direct drive is a gear banger trans with a clutch, and no torque converter.

Your Dad was probably right about throwing oil into the tank. Those old diesels would burn almost anything.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

Gotcha Passionhawk1. My knowledge was mainly with Cat and Allis Chalmers machines which all used a master clutch operated by the left hand.

I think International did likewise and the others were a mixed bag. Certain models of Case, Fowler, Cletrack and others may have had foot clutches. The knowledge on this site is Encyclopaedic and there are folks on here who will know.

I have been out of the game for many years and doubt any manufacturer has built a direct drive crawler tractor for some time except for agricultural applications . . . I believe you would be best served by power shift.

Cheers.

 

[lantraxco]

In my humble opinion direct drive needs a long stroke low rpm engine with a torque curve like a cliff, when you pull into a cut you can hear it pull down and beller like some ancient beastie. Torque convertors as Scrub mentioned allow the use of smaller higher rpm engines because of the sort of automatic reduction in speed as you gain torque. The engines still pull down some but you're gaining about half a gear as the torque loads up and does it's thing rather seamlessly.

A direct drive would probably shine in a slot dozing application like removing overburden in a coal mine, but hey, Obama pretty well shut those all down here I think, can't have all us subjects, er, citizens using up electricity and warming the globe, gotta leave that to the rich and political flying around burning tanker loads of kerosene on the way to all those green summits. Green is the color of money yeah? Sorry, wandered off there....

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

In my humble opinion direct drive needs a long stroke low rpm engine with a torque curve like a cliff,

I hear you lantraxco but I always remember the direct drive HD16 to be a nice tractor and I think they were naturally aspirated and ran at about eighteen hundred . . . six hundred or so RPM higher than a typical Cat of the era.

We learnt our way around those transmissions and, with a dab on the PCU to slow things down and, a blip on the decel we drove them like trucks on long scraper hauls . . . happy days. (grins)

Cheers.

 

[ol'stonebreaker]

All you talking about stick trannies in cats and no mention of the Johnson Bar?? Another thing to remember on the stick cats w/ hand clutch: If you plan to be off the seat for awhile and leave the engine running, put the tranny in neutral and engage the clutch. The clutch pilot bearing will love you for it and if you have to replace the pilot brg you'll respect it afterward!!
For my money I'd look for a well cared for D8-K w/ a 2 shank paralellogram ripper.
Mike