• Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!

Building new shop need some info

still learn'n

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
455
Location
Kansas
so if you go pole building do you do footers or just piers? on our new shop we poured a little stem wall it sticks out like 3" in back and 7" in front! the floor is sloped slightly but if it was flat and vehicle got pulled in with snow on it the water wouldn't run out around the wall!
 

Shimmy1

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
4,363
Location
North Dakota
so if you go pole building do you do footers or just piers? on our new shop we poured a little stem wall it sticks out like 3" in back and 7" in front! the floor is sloped slightly but if it was flat and vehicle got pulled in with snow on it the water wouldn't run out around the wall!

The plan is drill holes 6', pour 1' in the hole, let cure, then poles get packed with ¾" crushed rock. After building is up, floor gets poured inside. I have done several building sites for guys that have done it like this and all are completely satisfied. Only regret I have heard from anyone is one guy says he wishes he would of wrapped the building with Tyvex™.
 

FSERVICE

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
635
Location
indiana
I will give my vote to the spray foam.. if you have any doubts get you a infrared imagery camera & go to a building with it in the walls, look thru it at the walls the cold spots will be the studs in the wall!!! I have saw this firsthand there is no denying that spray foam is the best way to go, esp since you are that far north & it gets COLD there;) lol
also put the foam in the floor if you are going to do the radiant heat, your concrete guy is LAZY is what it amounts to. if in doubt there are several websites that have a lot of info on installation of radiant floor heat, make your own call, you will also have some prof that the concrete guy is trying to mislead you on this!!!
 

Randy88

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
2,149
Location
iowa
Start with a larger building, both width, length, and ceiling heights, then sit it where you add onto three sides with leans if needed later on. I love my service pit dearly, wish I had two in fact, mine is 50 feet long and its still not enough at times, we put several things over it at once end to end and have need for more at times.

If your going with ag repairs as well, you need a wider door or you can't get much in ag related, combines with heads won't even begin to fit through a door that size, not to mention have a place to park or unfold anything once inside, but I have no idea what kind of ag equipment your working on either.

My shop ceiling is 20 feet tall, people thought I was nuts for going so tall and now it has dings in it from hitting it with the crane, you need to figure out height and then the height to clear what your taking off the machine as well as the crane your using to do it with, I'd never go less than 22 feet again, maybe even higher if I were to use a steel truss open rafter design the next time around if I were to do it again, I'd never build with a wood rafter for a shop just for that reason.

I'd do a lean for everything short needed, instead of a loft in one corner or end, I hate to climb stairs and for the cost, its cheaper to add a lean rather than put a loft in a tall building.

I used blown in fiberglass in my wall cavities, and spray foam over cement block walls then fiberglass bats over that with tin on the inside. In my opinion you can't have too much insulation or r value for that matter. I don't like cement block at all, cement is porous and air blows into it and through it, not a lot but if I were do it again, I'd never use cement blocks at all anywhere, it would save a lot of grief insulating it later on.

I put infloor heat, I love it, but in frigid temps long term this past winter mine and nobody I know, the infloor kept up for extended cold periods, plan on two heat sources right from the start. I also did my in floor heat differently than most do, I made mine zone orientated not brining every line back to one location, that way if one line leaks, I can jack hammer out that zone and redo it, we just used several manifolds to do it with instead of one central manifold, something I really like. A cement guy told me to do it this way, he's seen problems over time with one zone leaking and instead of replacing the cement in the whole building, you just end up shutting down one zone. By separating them, I can just replace one whole section of concrete and piping.

I'd go no less than 7 inches thick on concrete with rebar.

I put pvc lines under the insulation and below the tile layer under the floor to pipe water lines, air lines, electrical and even pipe out waste oil without any of that stuff on the walls, I'd do again in a heartbeat, I love that idea. We also did that to put vents out of the service pit, which work great to suck stale air out of blow in during the summer to cool the pit area.

I put a drain in the bottom of my service pit with a sump pump in it, it works great, kicks in every 15 minutes to pump out ground water 24/7 and we put a lot of drain tile under the pit, around it and under all the concrete flooring, piping it all into the service pit, there are some in my area that didn't do this, now they can't use the pit, it constantly has water in it and its moldy down in the pit area.

I wired my pit, have air in it, lights built in and forced ventilation, all are a must, along with ladders throughout.

Bathroom, wash area, office/break room is a must, we love ours.

Even if you don't go with in floor heat, still put down the foam board, it helps to eliminate the condensation in the summer, which is a must as far as I'm concerned.

I don't like overhead rolling doors, roll up doors, but I do like my one piece hydraulic doors, would never go with anything else for a shop door. Just a few ideas I like or would do again, not sure any of them help or not.
 

Shimmy1

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
4,363
Location
North Dakota
I wanted a pit, due to having to work on the highway trucks. Everybody and I mean EVERYBODY though it to be a terrible idea. Safety, groundwater, loss of space, just to name three. I got to kiss the pit goodbye. I'm not the only one in the game so that was the end of that. Sure would have been nice though.
 

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
This is why I like this forum. Do you believe there is considerable benefit to going 4' down? We are talking about that. Also, you would recommend fiberglass over the spray foam? Guys I have been talking to claim the sprayfoam is better? The way they want to do it is 1" cellulose first, then spray foam over that, then cover tin.

I am totally comfortable with going down only two ft with the insulation and then out horizontal the 4 ft. The current state specs we are working with in MN require only 12" of ground cover on the horizontal pieces. They do require 4' horizontal beyond the building on any floating slab that has a utility penetrating it. The posts being shallower than what could be frost level in a bad winter should be fine with the insulation extending out the 4 ft. You will get very little frost depth at the building. We have installed 4" of insulation on 2" dia, 18" deep temporary water line under a truck access on a project and had zero frost under the insulation when we dug it up. The effect of natural ground heat will more than pay for that insulation in short order. As stated before the larger the footprint the less heat per foot required.
 

Delmer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
8,891
Location
WI
Do you believe there is considerable benefit to going 4' down? We are talking about that. Also, you would recommend fiberglass over the spray foam? Guys I have been talking to claim the sprayfoam is better? The way they want to do it is 1" cellulose first, then spray foam over that, then cover tin.

There's not as much benefit of going 4' down as there is to going 4" thick on the vertical. That's protecting your slab, which is your heat source, so you want the insulation as good or better than the rest of the walls or ceiling.
 

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
This is why I like this forum. Do you believe there is considerable benefit to going 4' down? We are talking about that. Also, you would recommend fiberglass over the spray foam? Guys I have been talking to claim the sprayfoam is better? The way they want to do it is 1" cellulose first, then spray foam over that, then cover tin.

I to like the spray foam over insulation. Five to six years ago I completed a 575,000 sq. ft hospital in Northern WI that the exterior in the non glass areas consisted of 8" thick precast stone with 3" of spray foam on the inside inside with a fireproofing intumescent spray on that. I called the chief engineer a hour ago and he told me that the last five year average on BTU use is 12% under the building design calculations. They are very happy with the foam.
 

Delmer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
8,891
Location
WI
I won't argue with the effectiveness of spray foam. It is very effective at stopping air flow, and a consistent R 15 isn't bad.

But if you can seal the interior surface (taped drywall, sealed plywood, or caulked joints in tin) then 6-8" of cellulose will give you more R value for less money than foam.

You're probably talking about Celotex brand fiberboard insulation with spray foam.
 

Georgia Iron

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
878
Location
USA - Georgia
Occupation
Concrete building slab and grading contractor
I install concrete and steel buildings in the south. I have often thought of ways to better do build it. I see water blow in under doors or through open doors. I see concrete bust were the buildings are bolted down. I have seen snow covered vehicle dumps gallons of water on the the building floor, It might be best to deal with this by installing a drain around the pull in area. I see slabs crack and break on fill dirt. We have done slabs sloped and some not.

In one instance a slab was not perfectly flat and the concrete was smooth but just went in to a slighty low area or dip. This was the best thing I have seen for cleaning up oil spills and changing oil. Catch what you can with your bucket, the rest falls on the concrete and flows to the low area, use a squeegee to push the fluids into a shovel and it was cleaned up quick.

I have loaders and I often think about how I would build my next building. It is easy enough to throw some wood boards down and drive the steel tracked vehicle in on them. I agree with at least 6" concrete with #3 rebar, 18" o.c. 3000 psi with fiber. I would place #4 rebar in the footings. I might consider placing footings at my floor joints. I hate having joints around my work area. I do not like using a creeper on the joint areas. I would plan that out so it did not happen. An overhead lift built with big steel I-Beams would be in my shop. It would span at least 30 feet and move on the span. Mounting that would require fore thought.

I do not know about floor heat but I would get it and figure out how to use a wood / oil heater setup. I would break it up with the manifolds like was suggested here. I love burning wood. It brings back something tribal.

I would only insulate the floor if I planed on heating it 24 / 7. But I believe that I would only use heat in the main part of the building when I was in there working. I would have a separate smaller insulated area if I needed a full time heated area. I would not build the building out of wood. I would use steel. It does not burn. Lots of structures are lost to fires and vandalism.

I would worry the most about the footings and snow loads of my roof. I have torn buildings down due to flatted roofs from freak ICE storms. I would also focus on keeping mice out of the building. Make sure the doors shut up tight. The dang mice and wharf rats can be a real problem here.
 
Last edited:

Shimmy1

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
4,363
Location
North Dakota
We would prefer steel but the cost makes it prohibitive. The quotes we are getting show steel building to be an extra 125-150k. Not to mention all the contractors say how much easier it is finishing a wood building. We are going to do all the electrical ourselves, this will be the third building I've done, and steel framed buildings suck to run conduit with all the beams.
 

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
Main thing I see with the wood frame is to protect it from welding/ cutting sparks. If you drywall it on the inside and use a non flammable accoustical sealant under the bottom of the bottom sheet so sparks do not roll into the crack, you are pretty safe. I used white siding metal mounted horizontal on my 36' sq. attached garage with 9 ft ceilings. It works great and really adds to the lighting. I would like to use the same in my 54' X 80' by 16' high building but it is also currently cost prohibitive. Thinking about building a smaller "work" shop and just keeping this one for toy parking only.
 

Shimmy1

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
4,363
Location
North Dakota
I had forgotten about this thread. Well, update time. After three post frame estimates, we discovered when the pen meets the paper, the post frame building really isn't enough cheaper to feel good about it. Our shop will be a Premier Steel Building, 85'x160', 22' side walls, 15'x53' lean. We built the site this fall, will be hauling gravel in about a month from now. Just going to stockpile the gravel, with the frost permits and frozen roads, the gravel hauling will go faster and be easier. I'll be sure to post pics as construction progresses this spring and summer.
 

ericscher

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
196
Location
Central Ohio
I spoke to an architect I was doing some work for about Steel Bldg vs Pole Barn. He said that as a practical matter a pole barn is more economical to build up to about 60 feet wide. After that it becomes more economical to build Steel.


On the heated floor and insulation thing, you might think about a thermal mass. That can be any sort of thing, even sand. You put down a couple of feet of sand beneath the floor and the constant heat (even if you only heat the floor to say, 50 degrees) warms the sand and it takes a lot to lose all that energy.

One thing I didn't see anyone mention is a power port on the outside of the building to bring power from a portable generator into your electrical panel. A good size is a 60 amp inlet, which is useful for generators having 30, 50 or 60 amp power outlets.

Also, and this may not apply to everyone, but when I eventually get to build what I want to I plan to have doors on both ends of the building so that I can pull a truck/trailer combo inside, park it and drive it straight out the next morning. No backing. Obviously, that calls for a bit of planning in terms of where the building is sited since you need adequate approach and departure room on both sides of the building, but it's worth keeping in mind I think.

Finally, I wonder if you have thought about an "outside" room for your physical plant?
It's easy enough to build out of cinder blocks and you place it outside your building and use it to house your air compressor. Piping in the air is simple and it also makes it more practical to run a gas or diesel powered air compressor.
 

driveshed

Active Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
38
Location
Coldwater Ontario Canada
I look at building a steel building but a stick frame was the better way to go. I have used 2" insluation under the concrete and also 6 mil poly for a moisture barrier. I went with a 32" ICF wall also. i install a 11" pipe coming into the building for the main water line from the outdoor boiler. The main part of the shop is 48'x 40' and with a 20'x 40 for a tool room and engine rebuilt . the main shop has a 18'x 16 high shop door and the tool room has a 12x 14 door. I hope to get back builting in the next couple of weeks . this winter is cold as cold can be, last wed the wind chill was -35 c and removing the main hydr line on a Cat 385 was fun at all but I guess thats why we doing it . getting back to pole barns I look at doing one but by the time you stud the wall for insulation and sheeting it was easyer to stick frame.
 

dcoot

Member
Joined
May 7, 2013
Messages
21
Location
new york state
I put up my current shop 10 yrs ago and I have some thoughts to share about it's construction. I'm not in the excavating or construction business, I'm a metal fab/welding operation that also does repair work and some machining. I'ts VERY important that you analyze your needs before you even start planning and as a bunch of the guys have said, don't make it too small or too low.

Here's my building. Steel building 50' x 160' with 32' to the peak. The structure was beefed up for two 5 ton bridge cranes for only an extra $6,000 not including the railways. I had the cranes and railways first then had the building made to fit them. I went with a standing seam roof of extra thickness because the building actually moves with the cranes and screws would work out over time. I have an 8" thick floor with radiant heat. 600 amp 3 phase power. Insulated and with steel inside finish walls. I have a 20' x 50' mezzanine at one end and have the office and machine shop underneath. Out back I have a 25' x 70' lean to which I'm enclosing this year.

Here's what I would do differently if I were to do it again (I'm not!)

I would educate myself better on the latest available construction materials and methods.
Install bigger doors, I have two 12' x 16' doors and they are too small.
Use spray foam to insulate and seal the building. Fiberglass bats were installed and I get drafts.
Make sure your sub's know their business. I had to rebuild the boiler system that never worked right with the radiant heat. He did a good job running the pex tubing and building the manifolds, but he didn't understand the tempering system and controls for radiant. Take a look at a similar sized job he's done.

I'm glad I did it then as I probably couldn't afford it today
 

Joeyslushr

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2013
Messages
82
Location
LeCenter, MN
I look at building a steel building but a stick frame was the better way to go. I have used 2" insluation under the concrete and also 6 mil poly for a moisture barrier..

Do you have radiant floor heat? And do you mean a moisture barrier under the concrete? The reason I ask is with radiant floor heat the sand under it dries out and heat doesn't transfer as well in dry sand. I would think you wouldn't want a moisture barrier in that application ? I had thought, when I did mine, of figuring out a way to incorporate some sort of soaker hose under the floor to keep some moisture in the sand. I eventually decided in the time I had to figure it out there was no simple way to meter it and passed but I still think it'd be a decent idea
 

CM1995

Administrator
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
13,399
Location
Alabama
Occupation
Running what I brung and taking what I win
Here's how I would like to build my next shop.

60x100 prefab building
4' poured perimeter wall and set the columns on the wall, with beefed up column piers of course
The 4' concrete perimeter wall is to take the abuse from all the things that go on in a shop
6" concrete floor with steel insets for driving tracked machines in and out
outside mechanical room for air comp.
Air plumbed throughout
pit for servicing underneath equipment in one area
small office with full bath, a shower would be handy
at least two HD utility sinks for washing up
parts washer
mezzanine level above the office and bath for light storage
big, huge exhaust fans to battle the summer heat
bulk engine and hyd. oil with air pumps
waste oil evac with tank
a small waste oil heater for heat in the winter
LED light fixtures
floor drains to wash down inside

That's my initial wish list.
 

Delmer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
8,891
Location
WI
you wouldn't want a moisture barrier in that application ? I had thought, when I did mine, of figuring out a way to incorporate some sort of soaker hose under the floor to keep some moisture in the sand.

No, please NO. There are plenty of ways to experiment if you want to do that.

The tubing shouldn't go in the sand unless you're storing heat (solar, wood, maybe off peak electric but sand is usually longer than 12 hour storage). The farther down the heat/tubes goes in the higher the temp has to be to push the heat all the way to the top, and the higher the heat the more goes into the ground.
 

old-iron-habit

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
4,233
Location
Moose Lake, MN
Occupation
Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
Delmar is absolutely right. Every test I have seen has the best results with the tubes in the top 1/3 of the concrete. Putting it in the sand is 20+ year old technology. It is a very inefficient heat sink. You get a low return on the BTU's you put in to it to heat it.
 
Top