Building new shop need some info

[driveshed]

Thanks for the info, I am useing 2 " SM and 6 mil poly under the slab, the heating system is a central boiler duel fuel outdoor furance. you are right a office is a must.

 

[clintm]

BIG BIGGER BIIIIGGGGGGGEEEEEERRRRRR is the best spend the money on stuff you can't easily do later

 

[old-iron-habit]

Hold your heat tubes as high in the slab as you can. Testing has shown that to be the most efficient. Also I would recommend thicker insulation. We go with 2 layers of 2" with staggered joints. If going less I would still recommend thinner sheets with staggered joints. Saves a lot of joint heat loss with better seal.

 

[popsiclepete]

Deffenitly agree about the insulation, minimum requirement is 2" SM. Also be carefull when choosing as some have different compression ratings and the live load on your shop floor is quite different than a home. As for the tubes towards the top of the slab? I don't think it really matters as the slab with proper insulation below becomes a heat sink and the insulation below stops the heat loss in the ground and therefore it must rise.

The most problems that we see with large shops and radiant heat is to long of loop length and improper spacing of tubes.

I also agree with hardner, it's well worth the extra money.

 

[grandpa]

Gramps how do you get oil to outside tank and when you want to pump out of outside tank how do you get it out? My father was going to put a little like maybe 5 gallon air tank in his shop for waste oil and then be able to just hook up air and blow it outside to bigger tank had thought I might do the same! Jerry

Inside my building I took a 265 gallon tank,,, cut it so a back and a bottom were left,,, the bottom is about 6 inchs high to hold a lot of oil... then a screen and then to a two inch pipe to the 300 gallon underground tank with a three inch stand pipe. On the back of the cut 265gal tank I welded a screen rack to place oil filters to drain... now all I have to do is train the help to throw the drained filters out... seems to end up being in my job description all the time.

 

[driveshed]

I was told to tape all joints, I ask my designer about 2 layers and he said he wouldn't do that because if your useing a vapor barrier that will stop moisture from getting in.

 

[old-iron-habit]

I was told to tape all joints, I ask my designer about 2 layers and he said he wouldn't do that because if your useing a vapor barrier that will stop moisture from getting in.

The tape will stop the moisture. It will not stop the cold from penetrating the joint. Not sure how your building code reads but in Minnesota our new code reads that if you go 4" thick and go out 4 ft extra around the building you can once again build a building with connecting utilities on a floating slab. The cost saved in eliminated frost walls more than pay for the insulation along with better efficiency.

 

[still learn'n]

Thanks Gramps so then the inside tank gravity drains to outside tank? Jerry

 

[FarmWrench]

New Ag Talk web fourm has mind blowing shops.

Remember that a shop is part of of your businesses infrastructure. Its size can be a limiting factor. You need to measure some combines and lay out how much space it would take to pull a rotor. (I think you are too small.)

Plan on security. Cable/conduits for cameras.

Fire. Too many great shops could have been saved with a little sprinkler system, a dry chemical self-contained unit near the air compressor and oil dump.

Use 48" man doors (or bigger). Carrying a ladder, dolly or wheelbarrow and drive your ATV or pressure washer.


Plan on getting a forklift or using your skidstear if you don't build in some sort out lifting equipment. We only get older and equipment heavier.

For a few bucks order the Prairie farm report shop video series. Some lame ideas, many very good ones. I am about to order from the Midwest Plan Service their shop planning/ construction book $5 (I have made worse investments.) FarmJournal has a great book with plans/layouts and features of built and working farm shops. "Top Shops"? And the original printing of Herbert Nichols Jr's book "Heavy Equipment Repair" has an excellent section on shops, the second edition is not as good.

 

[Shimmy1]

So, on to my next venture. We are thinking about building a new shop. Pole vs. steel frame. Price difference going with the pole frame will pay for the floor. It's going to have 22' side walls so stud wall construction is off the table. Does anybody have any reasons why a pole building would be the wrong way to go?

 

[FarmWrench]

The post frame industry revolves around getting thejob done for the least cost. Change becomes very expensive and "good enough" owns "better". But I have seen so many over priced under delivering metal frame (leaks, cold shorts, impossible to add to , wet, bad floors because the foundation was not sufficient on one spot., )

The latest BTO trend is build a poured wall (in your case 10'?) and put stick built on top (the remaining 12'?) .

 

[Shimmy1]

Hold your heat tubes as high in the slab as you can. Testing has shown that to be the most efficient. Also I would recommend thicker insulation. We go with 2 layers of 2" with staggered joints. If going less I would still recommend thinner sheets with staggered joints. Saves a lot of joint heat loss with better seal.

So what would some of you say if the cement guy says "I won't put foam under the floor. Doesn't help and if oil or the like seeps through it's going to dissolve the foam." I am certain I will be putting the foam down. Just curious what you're responses would be.

 

[still learn'n]

We are building a new shop just got the concrete work done and the concrete guys are the ones that did floor heat they put 1" foam down and then used a plastic staple and stapled the lines right to the foam! For a building the size you want to go with imho I wouldn't go with wood it would be steel for several reasons one would be that a wood building if it is spanning distance with the rafter you don't have as much ceiling height in the center as you would with steel yes I know with 22' sidewalls that will be tall and yes it is more space to heat but for me if I bring excavator in or use crane on service truck that height will be very nice! Farm Wrench sounds to me like that builder needs to step up to the task and do a better job! Hope we don't have leaks in our building! My 2 bits. Jerry

 

[ttazzman]

So what would some of you say if the cement guy says "I won't put foam under the floor. Doesn't help and if oil or the like seeps through it's going to dissolve the foam." I am certain I will be putting the foam down. Just curious what you're responses would be.

I would say thank you for your advice ....but i will find another concrete guy that understands the process's and proceedures for putting foam insulation under concrete correctly...

its OBVIOUS to me the guy is unwilling or un-familure with the correct processes etc so find someone who knows what they are doing

concrete floor in a shop is extremely important and need to be done correctly from start to finish you need someone ...engineer and concrete placer/heat tube placer to "get it right"......thickness...concrete strength...concrete reinforcing...control joints...surface hardeners...surface finishes cure/seal......concrete curing.....dealing with the insulation and heating processes....etc... if after its all said and done you have problems with the floor or the floor heat who are you going to call to fix it.......the concrete guy or the heat guy.......trust me they will neither one take responisbility.....so as STILL LEARN'N eluded to you need one source reposibilty find a guy that does the concrete and heat tubing and has insurance...

FWIW...floor heat is definitely the "Cadillac" of shop heat systems...the next system down in my opinion is Radient Tube heaters.....below that is Radient Spot heaters....and lastly convection heat systems...

 

[ttazzman]

Shimmy RE your post #30


I have owned and built many many of both kinds......over time you will get what you pay for.....and there are tons of pros and cons..... the main two differences that are important to me are.....

#1 i MUCH prefer the 26/24ga higher rib roof systems on metal buildings...(you can use them on your wood building at a additional cost i am sure)

#2 i MUCH prefer the concrete pier and footing for load predictability, design and life of a metal building system over the Wood ground contact of a pole structure (some pole building systems use a concrete ground contact system that helps a lot in this regard IE morton buildings)

 

[old-iron-habit]

So what would some of you say if the cement guy says "I won't put foam under the floor. Doesn't help and if oil or the like seeps through it's going to dissolve the foam." I am certain I will be putting the foam down. Just curious what you're responses would be.

I would put a membrane on top of the insulation and then put in control joints in to control the shrink cracks. Any good floor heating pipe should have no problem with normal shrink cracking. Use a good square mesh reinforcing as a minimum and add #4 rebar dowels across the control joints, every two foot on spacing and about two ft long should be fine. Any oil penetration should be minimal. Don't let the concrete contractor place the mix to wet. Keep the slump reasonable for less shrinkage. If you get a bigger crack over time caulk it with one of the caulks suitable for sidewalk construction joints.

Edit, I would be interested in where the concrete comtractor got his information came from in which he "learned" that insulation does not help. There are many scientifically documented tests with the various applications and every one shows the pipes in the top third of the slab with insulation under to be the most efficient in poured concrete. The only one better is insulated flooring with the 1-1/4 inch thick flooring grooved for the heat tubes and then aluminum stamped into the grooves. Great for a home but not practical for a shop.

 

[CM1995]

This is one of those threads I love to read as it explains construction specs and details I am unfamiliar with living in the South. I enjoy learning how different areas and climates construct projects.

Here in the South we don't have to worry about insulation or in-floor heat - it's the heat we battle.

 

[Shimmy1]

I would put a membrane on top of the insulation and then put in control joints in to control the shrink cracks. Any good floor heating pipe should have no problem with normal shrink cracking. Use a good square mesh reinforcing as a minimum and add #4 rebar dowels across the control joints, every two foot on spacing and about two ft long should be fine. Any oil penetration should be minimal. Don't let the concrete contractor place the mix to wet. Keep the slump reasonable for less shrinkage. If you get a bigger crack over time caulk it with one of the caulks suitable for sidewalk construction joints.

Edit, I would be interested in where the concrete comtractor got his information came from in which he "learned" that insulation does not help. There are many scientifically documented tests with the various applications and every one shows the pipes in the top third of the slab with insulation under to be the most efficient in poured concrete. The only one better is insulated flooring with the 1-1/4 inch thick flooring grooved for the heat tubes and then aluminum stamped into the grooves. Great for a home but not practical for a shop.

He gets very defensive about the foam under the floor when confronted. However, he also has put up over 900 buildings. I believe the oil factor is a reasonable concern, but I believe the advantages far outweigh the potential risk. He has given us a few testimonials about identical buildings side by side and says no foam costs about $15 per month extra. I also think his concrete crews are all about volume/productivity and he just doesn't want to deal with the foam.

Bottom line, I am just looking at what other guys think/have done so I can have piece of mind that we have facts to justify what we will build. We are going with a post frame simply because the price difference over steel will buy the floor, boilers, AND the lean where we will have our bench, bath, tool room, office, and loft for parts storage. In case anyone is wondering, posts will be 4' center, rafters 2', the roof and sides will be sheeted with ½" plywood, 1" HD foam first, closed cell spray foam, then cover tin. Outside, we will be going down 2', out 4' with 2" HD foam. If any of this sounds like it could be improved, I'm more than willing to discuss it.

 

[Delmer]

$15 a month huh? can't argue with that

Obviously you're dead on that he's all about volume. Not a bad thing but not the most important thing for you either, you have to live with this longer than he does.

If you do the heat loss calculation, you'll find that the heat flow through the ground is the LEAST well understood and the hardest to predict . In general, the bigger the footprint the less the the floor heat loss matters. Also, the temperature of the slab, the average ground temperature, and the water table are factors.

That being said, you'd be crazy to build a shop that you plan to heat above 60 with in floor heat and gas/oil heat and not put foam under it. Other heat sources or a 50 degree shop could be different.

Edge of slab insulation is critical. Why not down 4' with 4" and out 4' with 2"?

Everybody uses spray foam to tighten up old buildings for good reason, but if you have interior sheeting you get a lot more r value for your money with cellulose or fiberglass.

 

[Shimmy1]

Edge of slab insulation is critical. Why not down 4' with 4" and out 4' with 2"?

Everybody uses spray foam to tighten up old buildings for good reason, but if you have interior sheeting you get a lot more r value for your money with cellulose or fiberglass.

This is why I like this forum. Do you believe there is considerable benefit to going 4' down? We are talking about that. Also, you would recommend fiberglass over the spray foam? Guys I have been talking to claim the sprayfoam is better? The way they want to do it is 1" cellulose first, then spray foam over that, then cover tin.