580k stopped and won't start

[jimmyjam]

I've been flat chat with work, and we've had some wild weather, so no news.
I've finally got a mechanic coming this Thursday, but he says if it's major he'll want it taken to his workshop and wouldn't be able to work on it for 6-8 weeks!!!
I'm thinking if I make some room in my big shed I could tow it/ push it in there and potentially do it myself in that time frame.

How hard are the 4b to stuff up a rebuild? I've redone a perkins 4.270d before, but that was just an in frame rebuild on an old tractor I thought was only worth scrapping...
I'm no mechanic and would love advice on in frame vs out of frame rebuilds if it's just cam or timing etc.

Thanks again!

 

[Tinkerer]

If the engine was in good condition, such as low or no oil consumption and started good indicating good compression it would be best to do an in-frame repair. I am betting you will be just doing a camshaft and maybe replacing some drive gears . If the camshaft is broken due to a bolt coming loose and falling into the drive gear you may need to take the oil pan off for a thorough cleaning.

 

[jimmyjam]

Will the fact it's a 4wd bring potential problems with removing the oil pan?

 

[Tinkerer]

Will the fact it's a 4wd bring potential problems with removing the oil pan?

It just makes it more interesting.
When you remove the front engine mount take a close look at the hydraulic pump coupler bushings and you may need to replace the front (rubber bushing) motor mount.
If you need the (free) service manual I have one in .pdf form for a 580SK. Send me your email address in a private conversation and I will send it to you.

 

[Tinkerer]

[QUOTE="
If you need the (free) service manual I have one in .pdf form for a 580SK. Send me your email address in a private conversation and I will send it to you.[/QUOTE]
ARRRRRRRR !!! The service manual is a 665 mb .pdf file. My internet service and most others limit the size of a file that can be sent in an email. Typically 25 mb or smaller in size. I even put it in a .zip file format and still cannot send it.
Your best option is ebay for about $20.00 AU.

 

[jimmyjam]

Hi all,
Sorry for the lack of updates, I'll post some pics as soon as I have time and figure it all out.
The camshaft is snapped completely.
The gear on the crankshaft has slipped the keyway, both cogs are missing some teeth.
cam is out and I'm still waiting on the mechanic to come back to pull the drive gear off the crank. It's really stuck!
He suspects some sort of hydraulic issue caused the pump to stop spinning stalling the engine and breaking everything at the same time....

I've been hunting for a replacement motor as it might be easier and cheaper in the long run if the crankshaft is damaged.
I've found a couple of rebuilt 4bt motors for about AUD$8k or a "good runner" second hand one without the injector pump or manifold for AUD$2500. I could use my existing injector pump and bits.
The cheaper one is located about 3,700kms away, and whilst rail would be cheapish for freight, I can't look at the motor and have to take their word for it.
Are they the sort of motor that you can get away with second hand? or should I bite the bullet?
I've also got to spend some money getting the hydraulics checked out...

I know they're open ended questions, but sometimes other peoples experiences can help me make a decision...

 

[jimmyjam]

 

[Delmer]

I wonder if that's the "killer dowel pin" problem that a certain generation of Dodge Cummins trucks had?

My inclination is "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know", that is, I'd prefer to fix what I've got, knowing the history of the motor and how it was running before the breakdown.

If it was a killer dowel pin failure, you should be able to find some stories of what it takes to repair the typical damage.

 

[Tinkerer]

I would advise you to not buy a used engine. You may have another one with the same problems your present one has. Like Delmer said those 390 Cummins have a terrible reputation for broken camshafts. A hydraulic problem would not likely cause all that damage. A dowel pin or a bolt that came loose is the likely problem. If your crankshaft key-way isn't trashed a rebuild is your best option. Bent valves are probably in the equation too.

 

[Willie B]

Mine has a wire from the key switch to the injector pump solenoid valve. The terminal gets loose and falls off at the pump end.
If you ran out of fuel, the injectors must be bled.
Once, mine would start, but not run after the key was released. #2 son had got to it without a key. He hot wired it moving the white wire to a different terminal on the ignition switch. When he put it back, he chose the wrong terminal. That one was a little tough to diagnose.

 

[Equipmentguy224]

Just curious here: At how many hours did this happen???
And good luck with getting this fixed!!

 

[jimmyjam]

It shows about 8000 hours.
The dowel pin is still in place, so it was something else.
The solenoid is fine, it's the broken cam and other stuff that are the problem.

If the crankshaft keyway is wrecked, I'll need a new crank as well as a new cam. Between those two parts I'm already at about $4k from quick price hunts. I'm wondering if the $2.5k motor is worth a shot, pull both apart and put the best bits together. Cheaper way to buy parts if they're not broken.
I'm working long hours at the moment, and still need to pull the front engine mount off to put a puller on the crankshaft gear, so it'll probably be a while. I spent last weekend making sure the little fire truck was all working for the upcoming fire season. I need another couple of days each week...

 

[jimmyjam]

Just had another look at the motor, whilst trying to figure out how to easily hook up an engine hoist.
I noticed there's a bolt missing inside the timing case. My guess is it came loose and jammed the gears.
I'm leaning towards the $8k rebuilt 4bt, it would be quicker than me trying to rebuild mine, as the valves are probably all bent and maybe a ruined crank and possibly rods...
One local company did give me a quote of them doing a full rebuild if I dropped the whole machine off at their workshop, for "about $25,000 to $30,000"!!!!!
I paid about $25k for the whole machine with a bunch of add ons...

 

[thepumpguysc]

THAT seems alittle steep.. have you tried Cummins DIRECTLY?? If I remember correctly a reman long block 4BT is only 5-6K.. just swap the "bolt-on's".. starter, inj. pump, injectors, ect.. & if theres a Cummins close-by you can save the shipping charges & pick it up..

 

[jimmyjam]

I'm in Australia, so the dollar is a bit different. The cummins importer is in Melbourne AFAIK, a good 1000kms away. I should try them though.

 

[Tinkerer]

The missing bolt will most likely be in the oil pan and may be in pieces. It happens way tooo often.
$8000.00 Au converts to $6401.72 US. That is a decent price in the US if it is a complete engine.
Did you ever get a service manual ?

 

[Willie B]

New & rebuilt short blocks seem to sell for around $2500 here. The 580 K had no turbo.

 

[Coy Lancaster]

New & rebuilt short blocks seem to sell for around $2500 here. The 580 K had no turbo.

Check on ebay.com they have a short block cummins unit for 1,300.00USD and a long block for 2,450 USD just an option, prt# 3905377.

 

[alrman]

I'm in Australia, so the dollar is a bit different. The cummins importer is in Melbourne AFAIK, a good 1000kms away. I should try them though.

Hey Jimmy, That's a bit of a mess you have there..... What part of Aus, are you in?
I may be able to help or point you in the right direction.

 

[jimmyjam]

Thanks for the offer!
I'm near Goulburn NSW (near canberra). The mobile mechanic is back in my neck of the woods today and ripped the engine out and took it to his workshop. He said it'll save time and money in the long run. He probably prefers his workshop than a corner of my hayshed too. (I pulled and pushed it in there with a little old isuzu ute!
I'll speak with him tonight and hopefully find out more.