580k stopped and won't start

[jimmyjam]

Hi all,
Firstly thanks to all the amazing people on this forum with so much knowledge they offer up!

I've just run out of light for today, and the backhoe is about a kilometer from the house, so I'll do more testing tomorrow.

I started it up fine used a little ether as per usual in the cold weather, it was going fine just driving over to the hayshed to pick a bale off the top. It made it most of the way there running fine, and then it just completely cut out. Now it will not start or even fire. I tried priming with the lever on the lift pump, but didn't bleed anything yet.
I tried a little ether straight in the air intake, but nothing.

If anything it seems to be turning over more easily than usual, and it seems to sound different...
I'll try to post a video.

Coolant and oil both look fine.
I'll check the electric fuel cut in the morning (I'm guessing there should be +12v when key is on?) and check the air filter too. I'll also try to bleed the fuel system.

Anything else I should check?

Thanks!

 

[thepumpguysc]

Depending on your serial # it could have 1 of 2 inj. pumps on it..
A CAV rotary or a Bosch inline pump.. BOTH have electric shut-offs..
The Bosch gets its power while cranking, I think..
The CAV should engage w/ the key on.. On older style CAV's you can remove the plunger & spring from the center of the solenoid & keep running.. you just have to use the manual shut off lever on the top cover to shut the engine down..

 

[Delmer]

If anything it seems to be turning over more easily than usual, and it seems to sound different...
!

We just had a little conversation about turning over more easily and sounding different. A few possibilities. Most likely, there's no fuel (out of fuel, blocked filter/screen/fitting, burned out solenoid-maybe just when hot) and the engine is just cranking faster than it usually does because it usually starts before it gets up to full cranking speed.

If you have rodents, they can build nests that block off the air intake and get sucked in, that will make the engine crank faster. Also the exhaust won't have as much flow, like it won't blow a can off the stack.

 

[Billrog]

Take a piece of haywire and pull the shut off solenoid open hook in on something then start the tractor.

 

[jimmyjam]

Thanks for the advice!
Sun has just come up, I'll load up some tools and go start having a look.
Thanks!

 

[jimmyjam]

So still no luck.
I added 20 litres of fuel just in case the gauge was wrong.
I got 12.5v across the battery terminals, but could only get about 10.8v at the terminal on the injector pump.
The pump is a Lucas Cav.
Pulled the air filter, all good there.
Loosened the top breather screw on the injector pump and had a good steady stream on the first hand pump.
I'm worried that the easier turn over sounds similar to when my old Perkins wasn't closing valves...
I've tried uploading a video, but the file is too big for the forum.

I'm thinking that I might have to get a mechanic out to have a look.
As great as all the help you guys have given, you're relying on my ability to describe symptoms...

 

[jimmyjam]

Actually just before I give up.
With the fuel cut lever on the top of the pump. Is that meant to move when power is supplied? It's spring loaded so it is in the fully counter clockwise position.

 

[Delmer]

I got 12.5v across the battery terminals, but could only get about 10.8v at the terminal on the injector pump.
..

Hotwire that sucker. Or find out where you're losing the voltage, but it's easier in the short term to run a wire direct from the battery with a 5 amp fuse holder.

Or, I think you can remove the shut off solenoid and use the shut off lever to kill it. The solenoid does not move the lever, they operate independently.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Just because you have voltage TO the solenoid doesn't mean its working.. 15/16" wrench, take it out & test it or take the guts out & screw it back in..

 

[jimmyjam]

Thanks guys!
I'm about to head into work and won't be back til after dark. Will see if I can give it a bash tomorrow arvo.
Thanks again!

 

[jimmyjam]

Interestingly they didn't teach me any of this when I was doing my music degree... I think I got ripped off!

 

[Billrog]

It's spring loaded to close you have to compress the spring to open.

 

[Delmer]

IF you run a hot wire to the solenoid, it should spark and click when you connect the wire. No spark and click, remove the GUTS like TPG said.

Did the music degree at least teach you to judge rpm accurately?

 

[melben]

Is the injector pump running, those engines had a rare failure of the camshafts, they would break at the front bearing . That would account for the turning over different sound, maybe pulling a valve cover and watching valve action as you turn it over may help with your diagnosis, as stated, rare but possible, also have had some issues with bolts dropping out and going through the timing gears, more of that than cam breakage.

 

[jimmyjam]

Thanks for all the help.
I undid an injector line, it doesn't seem to getting fuel there.
Worse still I pulled a rocker cover and the top end isn't moving as it turns over....
I've called a mechanic as I don't have the time to do it myself, but I'm hoping it can be fixed in frame? And I'm not sure about the loader frame being down with the round bale soft hand on the front...
I've replaced the radiator myself and that was not fun with the arms locked up let alone down.

 

[thepumpguysc]

That's not good.. the inj. pump runs off the cam gear & if the cam gear isn't turning, something bad happened.. HOPEFULLY its just a sheared key..
Either way, the front of the motor has to come off.. & w/ the arms down, you might play hell trying to get someone to work on it?? Hoping for the best.. Good luck & keep us posted..

 

[Tinkerer]

Melben's post may be right on the spot about your engine.
I remember reading about 580K problem some time ago that may be of interest to you. Go to posts #12 and #13 here -----> https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/case-580k-4-390-engine-rebuild-questions.54921/
Be sure to look at the link in post 13

 

[jimmyjam]

Could be a stupid idea...
If I held the hydraulic lever in the lift position and lifted the loader arms with a truck crane that should work? Then I could lock the arms and get on with trying to fix it?

 

[mitch504]

That would work. If the engine is spinning easy, you can probably just hold the lever in raise and hit the starter. If you don't run it more than 30 seconds and then let it rest 3-4 minutes, you won't hurt anything.

 

[jimmyjam]

Arms are up!
50kph winds from the west today, so I won't try pulling the bonnet off, but at least the loader frame is out of the way and the safety lock is bolted in place!