Cat 225 LC rear main seal replacement project

[Dapperdan16]

I have been following this thread. I have to say, from personal experience turning wrenches on stuff for ~25 years, I don't like the cherry red/orange heat idea in a situation like this. The puller you have on there right now is what I would use, and I agree with mitch504 about the washers. Regular washers, even grade 8, are not going to cut it. The washers will just get extruded into the puller H-Beam. All steel acts like a spring, you need to add more inertia to the washers or spacers you use to decrease deflection, you do this by making them thicker. You also have to keep the "tuning fork" portion of the H-Beam puller from splaying apart. If you have thin springy washers in there, when you pound on the puller screw you're not transmitting the shock loading to the adaptor plate in a manner that will break it loose. Much thicker spacers or proper keeper plates, and making sure the bolts threaded into the adapter plate are FULLY engaged in all the threads available is where you need to start. Without having a parts book for this unit to see a cross section, I am making some assumptions on the anatomy of the assembly, I'm going by what I see in your pictures, I could have it way wrong.

I made a mock up of what you're trying to do and rendered out some pictures:

View attachment 154730
View attachment 154731
View attachment 154732

I see that you have nuts and washers on both sides of your H-Beam puller, that seems wrong to me if the H-Beam has a threaded hole in it. If that hole has wiped out threads, or if it is just a thru hole, it makes the puller a bit more cumbersome than it should be.

I personally would not overheat anything here... This is a part that sees vibration and flexure. When you heat steel hot enough, you change the crystalline structure of the steel and you can make it brittle. The adapter plate could become brittle and grenade apart on you at some point in the future.

IMO, moderate heat (map gas torch from Home Depot etc) while keeping a ****ton of torque on that center puller bolt while hammering on the end of said bolt with a steel 6lb sledge should do the job. Again, if your H-Beam is splaying, and your washers/spacer are springy, you're not transmitting the shock loading properly, and it makes it hard to break the pilot press fit free.

Full resolution of the above pics can be seen here: http://imgur.com/a/WrmhZ

All I can say is WOW!!!!!! Excellent drawings and write up, thanks a million etd66ss. I am to rushed after work to do it correctly, so I am going to beef up my puller over the weekend and take my time with it. Cmark was already correct about my first little rinky dink puller, I don't want him to be right about the threads stripping out, haha
I just want to say thank you to everyone who has been following the thread and giving imput towards the situation
Danny

 

[Nige]

Btw, I was reading your thread about trains, where my sister's house is, in western Maryland "Mt Savage/Frostburg area" the Western Maryland scenic railroad goes right by it, it's a former C&O 2-6-6-2 No. 1039 the Baldwin Locomotive Works built it in 1949, it was the last commercial steam locomotive built for use by a railroad in the USA. The train is currently having boiler tubes installed that were shipped from Germany, it's the coolest sight seeing it chug through the mountains.

At the risk of derailing the thread (nothing new there then) we went for a ride on the local steam railway yesterday. On a sunny day it's a lovely ride through the woods and along by the sea. Loch, the oldest loco in the video, was built in 1874. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZmBIZB1o9Y

 

[Dapperdan16]

At the risk of derailing the thread (nothing new there then) we went for a ride on the local steam railway yesterday. On a sunny day it's a lovely ride through the woods and along by the sea. Loch, the oldest loco in the video, was built in 1874. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZmBIZB1o9Y

Great video Nige, can't believe that train Loch was built in 1874, thats amazing. Your local train ride sounds nice and scenic, where are you located?? as far as the adapter plate goes, I am going to make up brackets for the puller to beef it up a bit and apply heat.
Danny

 

[John Shipp]

What's the biggest bar-type puller out there available? Snap on do a 10 ton threaded version for a mere $440, https://store.snapon.com/10-ton-Cap...ush-Pull-10-Ton-17-5-8-max-reach-P635284.aspx

Must be a heaps of old, large size pullers laying about in barns and shops, wonder if you'd get a better "crack" at it using a forged piece?

Looking forward to seeing picture of this plate successfully removed.

 

[John Shipp]

Looks like you could just about balance a bronze drift or piece of rectangular stock against the edge of plate and give it a pounding all round the perimeter, while it's all under tension.

If concerned about the 2 threaded holes, looks like you could tap threads carefully into the 2 flywheel bolt holes that appear to be in reach of the end of your puller bar. Then you'll have 4 bolts holding which should make it pretty rigid.

Easy to say from ringside seat I know, I guess it's waiting til you've shaken and sweated and got pretty wound up on it, then it'll give. It's a fine line to tread, hey.

All the best.

 

[John Shipp]

Did you get this adapter loose yet? Cheers

 

[Dapperdan16]

Did you get this adapter loose yet? Cheers

Hello John, unfortunately I have not, sorry it has taken me so long to respond or even update this thread, between my computer crashing and life in general, I have had no time. Here is the latest, I bought a 10 ton snap-on puller "very heavy duty" and have tried heating the plate with a torch, but it still won't budge. I have also tried the candle wax trick that Nige suggested, with no luck. I just picked up a Co2 fire extinguisher, so I am going to try to heat it up again then blast it with that and see what happens. I did notice two drilled holes in the flywheel that are exactly across from each other, I would think they were to balance the flywheel, but then thought maybe there could be set screws in there, if there were, the only way to get to them would be through the starter housing, but even then it wouldn't be easy. I highly doubt there are set screws, I guess I am just trying to find a reason why this thing is on so tight, as soon as I have more time I will post new pictures of the puller and also let everyone know if the Co2 does the trick, at this point I'm running out of options and am thinking I may have to cut it with a torch or grinder.
Danny

 

[John Shipp]

Hi Danny, sounds awful tight. Can see where you're wondering if there is more hidden bolts, much headroom around the starter motor, or contortionist time? Flashlight and dentists mirror?
You probably did already, but in these situations we usually dig out our ugly looking selection of scrap bronze/copper rectangular pieces of scrap, these are around 2" x 5/8" flats, about a foot long to start until they get ends trimmed as they get destroyed. Might need a few pieces, but when you've got puller on max, hold the 5/8" side against the rim of adaptor plate (so you hitting the 5/8 side up very the end, hitting it sideways with hammer) and smack it towards the crank shaft. Do this all round perimeter, need thick glove to hold your bronze drift, because it will very quickly become a splayed ugly thing! Rotate the drift end for end when it loses it's shape, keep checking tension on your puller, gives you time to get breath back!

If you try this, watch out for your eyes (goggles).

Might help, if you not tried this yet. If you did already, be interested to hear how the cold blast goes, never used extinguisher for this, only used cold water. Good luck!

John

 

[Dapperdan16]

Hi Danny, sounds awful tight. Can see where you're wondering if there is more hidden bolts, much headroom around the starter motor, or contortionist time? Flashlight and dentists mirror?
You probably did already, but in these situations we usually dig out our ugly looking selection of scrap bronze/copper rectangular pieces of scrap, these are around 2" x 5/8" flats, about a foot long to start until they get ends trimmed as they get destroyed. Might need a few pieces, but when you've got puller on max, hold the 5/8" side against the rim of adaptor plate (so you hitting the 5/8 side up very the end, hitting it sideways with hammer) and smack it towards the crank shaft. Do this all round perimeter, need thick glove to hold your bronze drift, because it will very quickly become a splayed ugly thing! Rotate the drift end for end when it loses it's shape, keep checking tension on your puller, gives you time to get breath back!

If you try this, watch out for your eyes (goggles).

Might help, if you not tried this yet. If you did already, be interested to hear how the cold blast goes, never used extinguisher for this, only used cold water. Good luck!

John

Hi John, there is a little bit of room around the starter, I have tried the mirror trick and can't see anything down there, also have tried using a bronze drift, beating the adapter plate in a full circle while I had the puller torqued, the end of the drift turned into a mushroom it was beat so much, still no luck. Have you every replaced the rear main seal in a Cat 225 with the 3304 engine? if so, did you run into any problems getting the adapter plate off the flywheel? anyone I talked to who has done this job never ran into this issue.
Thanks, Danny

 

[John Shipp]

Not that model in particular, but a faceplate like that is what you see, a ring of bolts to remove and some puller action. With a tolerance fit, the power of rust is incredible. It can be like this, where you get desperate in the end and have to hit it so hard that the tools may break up or the part suffers damage, not good. It's a fine line to tread, but sometimes you just keep at it, keep checking the threads and the bolts are in properly, and your puller tensioned up hard and square, more penetrant fluid, more hard cracks in the true line with your hammer, after an age you hope to see some movement. If not, maybe try and line up a replacement part before crossing the line and destroying it...

Is it only held on the centre, or is it tight in a recess round the outside? Can't make it out from photos.

Did you try the co2 hot cold treatment, or you still got in reserve?!

All the best, John.

 

[Dapperdan16]

Not that model in particular, but a faceplate like that is what you see, a ring of bolts to remove and some puller action. With a tolerance fit, the power of rust is incredible. It can be like this, where you get desperate in the end and have to hit it so hard that the tools may break up or the part suffers damage, not good. It's a fine line to tread, but sometimes you just keep at it, keep checking the threads and the bolts are in properly, and your puller tensioned up hard and square, more penetrant fluid, more hard cracks in the true line with your hammer, after an age you hope to see some movement. If not, maybe try and line up a replacement part before crossing the line and destroying it...

Is it only held on the centre, or is it tight in a recess round the outside? Can't make it out from photos.

Did you try the co2 hot cold treatment, or you still got in reserve?!

All the best, John.

It's amazing the power of rust, it is tight in a recess around the entire outside of the plate. I have not tried the heat/Co2 trick yet, been busy with side work on the weekends. One way or another this plate is coming off haha

Thanks for all your help and suggestions, everyone on this site is great

Danny

 

[Dapperdan16]

Pictures of heavy duty Snap-on puller

 

[Cmark]

I don't see much hammer rash on that plate I think you're going to have to get brutal on it. The idea isn't so much to loosen the rust per se, what you're trying to is to hit the plate hard enough to 'bounce' it off the flywheel.

 

[lantraxco]

I think the way that plate is made, and pulling from near the center (I know, it's the only place you can pull) the force is actually bowing the plate like a belleville washer, causing the outer edge of the plate to angle into the flywheel.

 

[John Shipp]

I think the way that plate is made, and pulling from near the center (I know, it's the only place you can pull) the force is actually bowing the plate like a belleville washer, causing the outer edge of the plate to angle into the flywheel.

Last night I was trying to think of a way to tap threads in the ring of bolt holes going through to flywheel, and setting up a heavy plate or something that picks up these holes, with another row of bolts around outside of this plate pushing on the edge of flywheel... It seemed the sort of thing that I might end up doing, it would take ages and might not work any better but it would be pulling on the edge.

Your old puller looked like it went across far enough to get over a hole each end, it might stop this bowing a little.

As Cmark says, you might need to brutalize it a degree or two harder.

 

[kshansen]

Maybe even remove the puller then soak it down real good and whack it several good times to flex it in a bit. Might let the penetrate in fluid work in around the edge. If you see a change in the color around the outer edge it means it is working. Keep hitting and flushing out with the fluid. Like Lantraxco says the puller might actually be somewhat counter productive at this point. Like trying to force a rusted bolt to turn. Better to get it working a little in each direction and flood the area with penetrating fluid to slowly wash the rust out.

We used to have a problem removing hydraulic pumps off old Hough Loader converters. The splines would lock on tight with rust. Found out if the converter was coming out anyhow that if you left the pumps in place then removed the converter from the housing and then removed plug from inside end of the drive gear and filled with penetrating fluid and just let sit over night the pump would fall out on it's own weight.

 

[etd66ss]

Whatever happened to this project?

 

[Dapperdan16]

Whatever happened to this project?

Hello etd66ss, I took a job at the end of July two hours from my home, so I literally have had no time what soever to work on it. "4 hours round trip every day eats up a lot of time " I am finishing the job up hopefully within the next week or so, and trust me getting back to this project is first on my list. I'm not sure why, but I tried posting and update saying nothing new to report and it did not post?? anyway I'll let everyone know what happens as soon as I resume. My plan is to heat it up ever so slightly then blasting it with the Co2 while I have some tension on the puller and immediately after, I'll spray PB-Blaster around the outer edge, hopefully it breaks free, because I am just about out of ideas. "driving 4 hours a day for 4 months is a lot of time to think of ideas" haha

Danny

 

[Delmer]

It looks like it will hold water, fill it up and wait for it to freeze, rotate 90 degrees and try it again. Might work?

Weld or plug all the holes except one, hook a paint sprayer to that one and pump in the water. That would have the power to ruin the flywheel, possibly the threads on the crank too, if the pressure held.

 

[Dapperdan16]

It looks like it will hold water, fill it up and wait for it to freeze, rotate 90 degrees and try it again. Might work?

Weld or plug all the holes except one, hook a paint sprayer to that one and pump in the water. That would have the power to ruin the flywheel, possibly the threads on the crank too, if the pressure held.

Hello Delmar, I'm not sure I understand your idea, are you saying to fill all of the the little threaded holes going through the adapter plate??