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Cat HEUI pump failure

HSV127

Senior Member
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
259
Location
New Zealand
I had a HEUI pump fail on my 2003 MT745 Cat Challenger at 400hrs, the cause was put down to working on very steep ground. Cat replaced it under warranty and we just ran the engine 5 litres over full after that and have had no more problems so far.
 

Nige

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Messages
29,704
Location
G..G..G..Granville.........!! Fetch your cloth.
I'm the same as Rod. I think I would go with 15W/40 in your particular climate, although to be honest it's a toss-up. I assume that your machines don't work 24/7 - right..? So they'll have a cold start every morning, and that more than anything is what the "ambient emperature range" of the O&M manual is referring to, that first cold crank in the mornings.

For your 324D (don't have the prefix so I just picked one at random) a 10W/30 oil is good for cold starts between -18C and +40C. A 15W/40 gives you coverage between -9.5 and +50. Based on those numbers and what you said above about your particular temperature range either oil will do you, although it would appear the 10W/30 does cover a slightly wider range in the lower end of the scale that might help in your application.

For the D6R the comparative figures are -18C & +40C for 10W/30 and -15C & +50C for 15W/40. Hardly any difference at all, both would be equally good. Strange - the O&M Manual only recommends a CG-4. WTF - that's 1990's lubrication technology.

One thing though, if you have the advice recommending the 10W/30 CJ-4 oil from your Cat dealer in writing and you experience another failure while using said oil then you have all the ammunition you need to nail his sorry a$$ to the wall. As I said before, keeping good records is a must in order to have the evidence to present to backup a Goodwill claim in cases like these. As Rod says, if you want anything looked over regarding your SOS history then please ask.

Just as another random thought. Do you know what the sulphur level is in your diesel fuel ..?
 
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log frog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
91
Location
New Zealand
Thanks guys.
Oil recomendation by the dealer has been documented. Warm up proceedure was also mentioned, and while we have always warmed machines before work, operators are being reminded of it's importance.
I have had an issue with the cooling system on the 324D, but will start a new thread. I would value your imput.
 
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Gavin84w

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2007
Messages
554
Location
Australia
Thanks for your imput guys.
Moving forward, Cat dealer has advised us to use the highest grade oil available, and suggests 10w30 CJ4. Ironically available only North America (not here) as a Cat product, but can get as Total 9400 10w30 CJ4, from my local distributor. Had previously been using 15W40. This oil is 40% more expensive than 15w40, but if that's what it takes... We have no temperature extremes here. (-4c to +35c).
Any thoughts gents?

I find it odd the dealer is advising on a produvt they don,t even sell so what experience are they basing thier recomendation on? Just a bit odd to me

-4 to +35 is the same temp range we see here in NSW and 15W40 has sufficed in thousands of engines here with no issues.

SOS, quality oil and oil changes on time are the key. Gotta get the right oil in the right hole at the right time.
 

Nige

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Messages
29,704
Location
G..G..G..Granville.........!! Fetch your cloth.
Gav, I would suspect it's the Caterpillar factory (or most likely the "experts" on DSN) not the dealer advising the oil that should be used. We had that years ago in Latin America when the factory was advising the use of CI-4 engine oil that was only available in the US and the best we could get locally from any of our suppliers was a CH-4.

50 ppm sulphur is whats known in the trade as Ultra-Low Sulphur (ULS) diesel. That will not present the problems I was thinking about when I asked the question. In my case I have to cope with up to 2000 ppm of sulphur and it causes the production of high levels of soot in the engine oil analysis. Certain engines (not HEUIs I hasten to add) that I have on my property do not tolerate this excessive soot well at all and on those engines we change oil at between 200 & 250 hours because if we go over that the soot levels spike drastically, and so does the iron in the SOS.

Do your oil analysis reports happen contain the numbers for the following - I've included the abbreviations as they appear on the report. Oxidation (OXI) Nitration (NIT) Sulphation (SUL) Soot (ST) TBN & TAN ....? If they are not there or some are missing you are only getting the "SOS Light" analysis. It might pay to ask the dealer for the full-fat version, just to be on the safe side. And make sure that they front up the difference in cost for producing that analysis, not you.
 
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log frog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
91
Location
New Zealand
An Update...another HEUI pump failure

My Cat 324DL has suffered another HEUI pump failure. Looking back in my post, I said that it first failed at 4000 hrs. I was mistaken, it failed at 6300 hrs (just out of warranty) and I recieved some support from my dealer, in the way of parts price reduction. Still a damn expensive repair, as all injectors needed replacement.
Well, 1800 hrs later it has failed again, taking the injectors with it. Pump was a reman, and when I ask the dealer if they are as good as a new pump, the dealer assures me they are. He says he has checked with Cat tech guys on this, and there is no reason a reman should be any less reliable than a new pump. I have my doubts. The pattern of failures we are experiencing, is very different to everything the dealer is telling me.

Dealer assures me this is not a common problem, but I have unearthed others (including a reman at only 1100 hrs). But he says it appears to be more common in the logging sector than earthworks/construction.

Our machines are always 250hr serviced and oil sampled. This machine works hard, shovelling, sorting and loading, but has turned out to be a real lemmon. (see my posts in the excavator section titled 'Cat cooling hub failure') Having suffered the same HEUI issue with our D6R, we are worried that the rest of our fleet will fail as they reach similar hours.
This problem has become so bad we are now considering trading out of our Cat machines as soon as they approch end of warranty. Either that or replace the HEUI at regular 1000hr service intervals. This would be a much cheaper option than letting them run till they fail. At least we would save the injectors.
 

tctractors

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
2,423
Location
Worc U.K.
log frog, in the U.K. HEUI motors are known to be dogs, causing plenty of agro for the owners, the oil change times are often way off mark with motors getting a fresh drink of oil after going well past a 1'000 hrs of hard flog, the oil sample thing is usualy only done on new Iron with an amount of factory Warranty, so these engines have a crap name for being a money pit, I stay well clear of them due to the stomach churning bills that soon collect around them, plus the fear of getting dragged into a bad situation having to live with 1 of the knackers that struggle to run for only a few 100 hours before the next calve down happens, best bet is to box up that 324 into a sale ready bit of steel, with a view to swapping it in for anything that will do a days work, a Doosan will run circles around it without the fancy bills, all that talk about oil changing and oil samples is bull crap, the engines are rubbish with stupid costly parts, this is just my thoughts, but its is a fair discription on a Lemon set-up.

p.s. just noticed you called the engine a Lemon, I wish I had met you before you bought the Dog, I would have told you what you now know, their crap!
 
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csquared

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
125
Location
BC
My Cat 324DL has suffered another HEUI pump failure. Looking back in my post, I said that it first failed at 4000 hrs. I was mistaken, it failed at 6300 hrs (just out of warranty) and I recieved some support from my dealer, in the way of parts price reduction. Still a damn expensive repair, as all injectors needed replacement.
Well, 1800 hrs later it has failed again, taking the injectors with it. Pump was a reman, and when I ask the dealer if they are as good as a new pump, the dealer assures me they are. He says he has checked with Cat tech guys on this, and there is no reason a reman should be any less reliable than a new pump. I have my doubts. The pattern of failures we are experiencing, is very different to everything the dealer is telling me.

Dealer assures me this is not a common problem, but I have unearthed others (including a reman at only 1100 hrs). But he says it appears to be more common in the logging sector than earthworks/construction.

Our machines are always 250hr serviced and oil sampled. This machine works hard, shovelling, sorting and loading, but has turned out to be a real lemmon. (see my posts in the excavator section titled 'Cat cooling hub failure') Having suffered the same HEUI issue with our D6R, we are worried that the rest of our fleet will fail as they reach similar hours.
This problem has become so bad we are now considering trading out of our Cat machines as soon as they approch end of warranty. Either that or replace the HEUI at regular 1000hr service intervals. This would be a much cheaper option than letting them run till they fail. At least we would save the injectors.
Green is looking good?
 

D&GExcavating

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
341
Location
Minnesota
Out of all our equipment, there's never been one that failed, and our D6R has 12,000 hours on it. Oil changes at 250hrs, along with the primary air filter and all fuel fiters/water separators
 

tctractors

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
2,423
Location
Worc U.K.
D&G, I am taking it that the 6r is series 2or3? I must compliment you on doing the service side on the button, I dont get this sort of work, that is service jobs, near all of my work is to do with machinery in the calved down situation (Knackered), the best D6R or the tractor that is thought the best to own and run is the banger with the 3306 motor, these tractors are fairly low cost to run and hold a good price on the U.K. market, the main chassis might not be as good but lots of the later frame improvements can be fitted to them, plus plenty of owners know of loads of simple mods' that make them a blinding bit of kit, the main and most common D6R found in the U.K. is the LGP tractor, the oil amplified injector system is not rated very highly and is avoided as much as possible on our little rock, the system is doomed from the very start in muckshifters eyes, with all the polutants and crap the engine pokes out going into an oil pump that would best be fed from its own oil tank??? the oil change periods on most machinery is now on the 500hr mark, the HEUI system needs a re-think???? but I cannot argue the fact that there is people that love it, and through the correct service control you have managed an eye watering amount of clicks on the meter, well done to all involved, but it would not be the common thing with muckshifting U.K. wide that tractor would be on its 2nd motor.
 

catken

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
123
Location
central Nebraska
Has anyone had the same problem with the 963C? We just did pump, injectors, and etc. to the tune of $8000+.
We have about 8000 hrs also. Would be curious if the 963's are a problem. We also do the 250 oil change.
 

surfer-joe

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
1,403
Location
Arizona
One can safely extend service change intervals, if one partakes of a good oil sample program, installs excellent quality filters, and also installs additional fine filtration assemblies. Watch the sample trend results closely, use quality oils, and treat the diesel fuel you use like it was gold. Pre-filter every drop you install into your equipment. Sample every load of fuel you receive, and make your distributor take it all back if it comes out loaded with water, dirt, or algae or other unwanted items. Also check for BTU content and Sulphur content.

High Sulphur or water contaminated fuel has to be kept a long ways away from any Cat with a HEUI fuel system. Severe damage will quickly result if not. Re-Man fuel systems components have been an issue with Cat for a long time. The cheaper price is attractive, But Cat pays nothing for your equipment downtime and rarely any warranty service labor.
 

chrisd1986

New Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
1
Location
wirral, england
Ive got a cat c9 engine in my mobile crusher plant and i think my heui pump has failed the engine just cut out and wouldnt start, ive changed all fuel filters and ive got no injector leaks but if i crack a pipe off just after the heui fuel just dribbles out but if i prime it manually it fires fuel out. Ive had it running on easy start but ive had a diagnostic lamp flash code 39. Any help would be apreciated
 

gmac

New Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1
Location
edmonton
I'm not sure if that engine is similar to a 3176 but I had a Sterling gravel truck with a start / no start issue when ever it felt like it, turned out to be the switch on the cyl head that senses the heui oil pump pressure. It needs to be in the 700 - 800 psi range while cranking before it will fire.
 

br1

New Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
1
Location
Borriana, Spain
I have a couple of CAT-769D, with HEUI 3408E engines. One of them couldn't start and We were told that the problem was with the HEUI pump: The rail presssure control valve had it's seat damaged. Caterpillar (finanzauto, it's spanish dealer) told us they could not change the valve and the only solution was to change the whole pump (wich was replaced 1600 hours before by a exchange one from caterpillar). A exchange pump would cost around 5000€ (6500 US$), a second hand one was around 2600 € (3500 US$).
Finally I took the valve to a small local workshop that repairs hydraulic parts, and they made a new seat for the valve by less than 200€ (270 US$)
 

oldtom

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
115
Location
Australia
Occupation
diesel equipment maintenancesuperviser
leg frog hi from oz HEUI pump pull down about 3 a week reman parts are rebuilt with both used and new parts [more used than new]have you checked cam and rockers , c'ser engines eat cams and rocker gear plus head problems ,you could fit a spinner type oil filter to remove carbon and fine metal from lube oil.
 
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