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Cat HEUI pump failure

Discussion in 'General Industry Questions' started by log frog, Jun 13, 2012.

  1. log frog

    log frog Well-Known Member

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    I'm a long time Cat owner with 10 machines. I have recently had 2 Cat HEUI pump failures, and was wondering how widespread this problem is. Cat 324D failed at 4000hrs, and D6R series 3 at 4800 and again at 6800hrs, forcing pump and injector replacement.
    According to the dealer, Cat have been attempting to fix the problem by upgrading the bearings in the pump, but the upgraded pump on D6 only lasted 2000hrs, so they still don't have it right?
    Apparently, the bearing starts failing, shedding metal into the oil and then into the injectors.
    They talk about the need for the highest grade engine oil, and engine warm up procedure, but it would appear these pumps are causing widespread issues.
    Has anyone else got similar history? If so, why don't Cat own the problem and help their customerss out, till they can sort it. In my case, if it's out of warranty, I pay the bill.
    Gotta admit, I expected better of Cat than that.
     
  2. rare ss

    rare ss Senior Member

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    we never had one fail before, ran good oil and serviced/sampled every 250hrs.. i might be old school but i'm not keen on 500hr oil change invervals at the end of the day oil and a filter are cheap IMO
     
  3. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    On the 3400-series of engines (going back to around the mid-90's time frame) the HEUI pump was a total pain. These days they are a bit different. Of our equipment which was mostly new in the 2008/9 time frame we have had one HEUI pump failure early doors on a 336D, covered under warranty IIRC, but that's been it to date.

    I don't give a flying f**k what the manuals (or the "500-hour oil change" sales pitch) say, on a HEUI engine I'm going to change the oil & filter every 250 hours - or less if SOS tells me to. We have to be very careful where I am now because our diesel fuel is very high in sulphur and affects oil condition greatly.

    Still not a fan though.....
     
  4. log frog

    log frog Well-Known Member

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    We have serviced all machines at 250hrs, with approved oil, and sampled at 500hrs without any issues. 500hr servicing was an option for us, but like you guys, I figure oil is cheap... We have a 336d, with the same C9 as in the D6R, no problems yet. Fingers crossed.
     
  5. rare ss

    rare ss Senior Member

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    the new pump which failed, was it new-new or reman-new?

    We had afew issues with reman components over the years at the time we went back to rebuilding them ourselves
     
  6. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Good point

    Only "a few" ............???? We've had loads. I think Cat have slowly come to the realization that there are certain things that just don't Reman very well.
     
  7. Dozerboy

    Dozerboy Senior Member

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    I'm surprised your having such issues and your doing 250hr services most of the issues I know of are from guys stretching out the servicing. Maybe just bad luck. HEUI pumps are idiotic on diesels.
     
  8. log frog

    log frog Well-Known Member

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    Pump and injectors are reman. Parts alone were almost US$12,000. No way could I have afforded new!
     
  9. Gavin84w

    Gavin84w Senior Member

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    1000% correct, 500HR oil change is not for the everyday operator, to do it successfully takes a fleet of people in the background looking at all manner of things and devising strategy to be in front of any issue that crops up.
     
  10. rare ss

    rare ss Senior Member

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    I was being nice, pretty much half of all reman units failed pretty quickly, worst one (which was one picked up by chance) was a D9L oil pump, we did a bearing roll, oil pump, pump/injectors & turbo while we resealed the sump, anywho the engine started breathing pretty bad with the new found puff and after around 1000hrs we ended up putting a set of liners in, found the oil pump had broken the case bolts from being over tightened during assembly, we also had a reman rotary coupling fail on an old 235C locking up causing the steel slew piping to be turned into a bowl of spagetti dumping "19L" (otherwise known as the Hyd oil capacity) on the ground
     
  11. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Unless things have changed recently your "Reman" injectors are probably new ones. Of course with the number of irrepairable units that go back as cores the Reman system always contains a % of new parts just to keep the numbers up. But IIRC Cat was having so much trouble reman-ing HEUI injectors to an acceptable price & quality that they gave up an just supplied new injectors in an 0R box.
     
  12. CAT793

    CAT793 Well-Known Member

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    If you can't afford NEW there is no way in the world you can afford REMAN. If you get 3000 hours out of REMAN HEUI Fuel Components then you are the LUCKY one. As Nigel said 30 to 50% of REMAN is NEW.....pull the squirters out of the paper and look at the Solenoids:- if they are Honey colored they are true REMAN but if they are white they are NEW.

    On the 500 hour drops:- think of the scenario of Soot loaded oil in there twice as long and the tolerances of a variable displacement piston pump and Fuel injectors. As HEUI get longer in the tooth pop the tapper cover and watch the squirters when you crank- the leakage from the tell tale holes is amazing. The confirmation of that is watching it start with ET and what the IAPCV is doing to stroke the pump up to Desired Actuation Pressure. imagine running a Hydraulic system on Dirty Engine oil AND THEN LEAVING IT IN THERE TWICE AS LONG..........??
     
  13. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    That IMHO is the basic flaw of the HEUI system. All the Rules of Hydraulics are based around "keeping the oil clean", then in a HEUI you run the pump & injector hydraulics on dirty engine oil. WTF ....???

    I'd suggest that you pay your dealer a visit and ask them to put in a Goodwill/Policy Claim on your behalf for the failed pumps & injectors which I assume occured outside normal machine warranty otherwise you wouldn't be posting here. Tell them you believe you have not "received fair value for the money you have paid" in respect of both machines for the OEM HEUI pumps & injectors, plus the replacements fitted to the D6R @ 4800 hours that failed again @ 6800. Be prepared to back up your story with your machine maintenance records showing timely oil & filter changes, the manufacturer's technical data sheet of the engine oil you use, plus your oil analysis records right back to Day 1 for both machines. Also be prepared to show the dealer that any time there were reports from SOS that where either in the "Monitor Compartment" or "Action Required" categories for either engine then something was actually done about it and not just file the oil analysis report in the machine history file. Wouldn't hurt to have details of the coolant analysis for both machines plus the downloads from the machine electronic controls (engine, transmission, implements) using ET to show the dealer that in general the machines have been operated within acceptable parameters.

    As one of my old bosses once told me - "If you have a $100 claim you need a $100 story. If you have a $100,000 dollar claim you need a $100,000 story".
     
  14. log frog

    log frog Well-Known Member

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    Good advice guys, thanks. A bit of background on this machine: Imported from the States by another brand dealer at 6k hrs, inspected by Cat workshop on my behalf. Advised that all was well apart from an intermittant misfire at start up on No.1 cylinder, and that the HEUI pump had been replaced at 4800 hrs according to Cat records. All injectors replaced by Cat, paid for by other brand dealer, problem solved, we take deliveryand put to work. HEUI fails at 6800 hrs. Talked with Cat, "you didn't buy the machine from us", etc etc. They have reduced the price of parts by approx. 30%. I suppose that's something.
    We are now upgrading our oil to the highest standard available here. No more reman HEUIs for us!
     
  15. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    That takes care of the D6R, as usual things are never as clear-cut as they appear when someone first posts asking for help. Not trying to be a smart-arse but in order to get informed comment you need to give the whole story up front.

    So what's the story about the 324D .....??
     
  16. log frog

    log frog Well-Known Member

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    324D purchased new from dealer, like most of my machines. 250 hr servicing and sampling, with good oil. No bad samples. HEUI failed at 4000hrs, taking injectors with it. Replaced under warranty.
    With respect Nige, what difference should the machine history (btw it had good Cat history) make to the point of my post, which is the reliability of the Cat HEUI system?
    Some price relief was only offered after some arm restling across the table with my area manager.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
  17. CAT793

    CAT793 Well-Known Member

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    I can't speak for Nigel but in my opinion the Machine/Engine/Application relationship is critical when giving advice or sharing an opinion.

    The Reason:-
    Power Ratings, updates, Fuel Burn, load Factors, work environment, generation of fuel system, gear box or Pump drive fitted, speed histogram, generation of software, emissions Tier, Vibration, altitude, climate, application......all effect the outcome of formulating an accurate opinion.

    A 1st generation 3412E with "Primed" squirters in a 7KK 24H is quiet a different BEAST to a 3126E with an Allison Auto in a KW T300.......and they are both HEUI.

    As far as reliability goes:- They get to a FIX in most cases eventually.... The "Non-Primed" HEUI squirters that we got in the end that went into 3412E in some 773D lived to 22000 Hours on 250 hour drops and CAT DEO. It was the multiple sets before that that I lost my Faith in the system.....
     
  18. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Sorry, I was getting sidetracked with your particular issues on your 324D & D6R and completely missing the point of your OP. My apologies. I hope that those of us who've posted here have given you some help in how to tackle your dealer if problems like this arise - back to my "$100,000 story" post earlier.

    I remember well the non-prime versus prime injector issue, and at the time I was working on machines at 10,000ft+ altitude in the Andes. It caused us no end of grief .........
     
  19. log frog

    log frog Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your imput guys.
    Moving forward, Cat dealer has advised us to use the highest grade oil available, and suggests 10w30 CJ4. Ironically available only North America (not here) as a Cat product, but can get as Total 9400 10w30 CJ4, from my local distributor. Had previously been using 15W40. This oil is 40% more expensive than 15w40, but if that's what it takes... We have no temperature extremes here. (-4c to +35c).
    Any thoughts gents?
     
  20. CAT793

    CAT793 Well-Known Member

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    I would recommend CAT DEO IN 15w40 (providing your Machine and climate fall into the recommendations in the OMM). Your climate does not seem that severe.

    This is a good enough oil for $8 000 000 CAT 797F so I have every confidence in it. If you run the OEM oil and filters and SOS this is one less "road block" you will encounter if you do need a warranty claim (God forbid). If you would like an opinion on a SOS history by all means flick it to myself, Nige and I am sure we would both love to offer you an opinion/recommendation .... Rod