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Working the National 1300A

Discussion in 'Cranes' started by Natman, Jan 3, 2017.

  1. Tradesman

    Tradesman Senior Member

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    That’s one BAAAD! Feeling sliding backwards down a hill, at least you’ve got lots of time to think of the ugly things that are likely to happen. Glad it didn’t go to sh!t on you.
     
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  2. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    What I meant was it sounded like you were on a pretty good slope there along with ice/snow. In my limited experience with crane-type devices the flat foot outrigger likes to slide around on slippery surfaces and if the tires were sliding all over then they are not going to be much help even if they are still in contact with the snowy pavement.
     
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  3. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Little sand or # 11 limestone chips works great on ice for all kinds of traction .
    Don't take much . :)
     
  4. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    I for sure get the loose fluffy snow out of the way, I just threw my grain shovel in the rig yesterday. On a slope, I try to take it down to the gravel or dirt. Almost all my residential is on slopes, I did every house shown in this high dollar, plus many unseen, all on slopes. I do snowboard, the ski area being a 5 minute drive from my place, but I prefer not to do it in the National!

    At that job pictured, once in the driveway, it only had a little downslope and no side to side, and the good crew I was working with that day were savvy enough to take the snow down right to the gravel. On my 17 ton Terex boomtrucks, I had some homemade 1/4" plates that fit on the outriggers, they had angle iron welded on the bottom, they never slipped but dug in real good.

    I took off my rear axle wheel covers/mud fenders today, they look sharp and keep the slush off the bottom deck but make chaining up even more of a pain. Best case scenario, when I have a heads up as to the need to chain up, I stop on level ground and raise the wheels off the ground with the outriggers, put on my snowmachine suit and get 'er done. I don't mind as it's all at my usual hourly rate, including taking them off. No one has ever complained about that, and if they do, they can get someone else to make their pick.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  5. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    I actually passed up the chance to drive the Tesla for a week, the owner was going out of town and he offered to leave it with me. I'm proud of myself for doing this! My daily driver is a pluginPrius, and the tesla was so high tech it made the Prius feel like a model T.


    Today I had a weird thing happen, after doing a simple HVAC job on the main drag in town, the location made known to me by the contractor by it's relative nearness to other well known businesses, I never got a address, on nice level asphalt. Tonight, I'm home reading the local newspaper, and see an article about a new cookie shop/bakery opening in town, and for one day, today, they were going to be offering free chocolate chip cookies (one to a customer, but they were huge). Since I had just driven the entire main drag, I could have easily stopped by if I had known. For future reference....I googled earthed the address given, and after I zoomed in on the location and got oriented, I found the roof top I had done the HVAC work on a few hours earlier WAS THE COOKIE SHOP. I was on the backside so never noticed, and now that I think of it, I was upwind. I got robbed.
     
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  6. petepilot

    petepilot Senior Member

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    drop in there later today tell them you want your cookie or you`ll pull their ac back down
     
  7. hosspuller

    hosspuller Senior Member

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    Coulda.. shoulda … Put a note on the hook and dangled at their front door … Fish'n for a cookie ! :p
     
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  8. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    So I'm setting a SECOND 55' gable end truss on this project, for a crew I never worked with before, the first just like the one in the pic, but it sat on the wall, so full bearing. I still think a bit like a carpenter so I told the builder "that thing can't go there, on layout, 24" from the OTHER gable truss", so he double checks his truss plan, and sure enough it tells him it DOES go there. He then says he doesn't care if it's wrong, he's going by the truss print, I dig in my heels and tell him it CAN"T go there, it will collapse, something's screwed up, and that he better call the truss plant for confirmation. 10 minutes later, he tells me I was right, the plans were wrong.

    It's a little spooky to see the head carpenter on a good sized commercial job that didn't have the common carpenter sense to see that the thing would just fold up without full or at least partial bearing underneath! I see this all the time, it wasn't until I pointed out the different construction of the trusses meant for free spanning that he got it finally. He took it like a man, appreciated it, and they are using me on their next project, and they paid that day, cash. IMG_20181217_114620062_HDR.jpg
     
  9. kenh

    kenh Well-Known Member

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    Geez, a customer who listens to reason, pays cash!
     
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  10. Tradesman

    Tradesman Senior Member

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    Did they lift ok ? I’ve done some 52ft. X 4 ft. Deep flat trusses for one of my own jobs and they wanted to fold up on me I had to hook 4 points then my crew had to brace in 4 places from a man lift to keep them from folding right over
     
  11. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    I used my telescoping spreader bar, at it's max 14' width, and two 20' straps, just to keep the rigging angle as moderate as possible, then my usual truss rigging setup of a 1" round sling going to a 3' length of sch 80 chain with a snap hook on the end. It took several attempts, starting from 10' either side of the center, and steadily moving the rigging outwards and nothing was working! I too have had issues with these types before, and they had sent a guy to get some more 16' 2x4's to make into a stiff back, (my suggestion) that we would clamp or nail to each truss, the only way that worked for me before. Removing and reusing it each time. Centered, and for some reason not on the bottom or top chord, but about 1' up from the bottom seems to work the best. It takes longer obviously but it stiffens them up enough to pick the darn things. But, this time, to my surprise, after 3 or 4 rigs, each more outboard, moving 24" each time, we reached the sweet spot. We never resorted to the stiffback plan B. The interesting thing was each previous attempt was not even close to being workable, no way, but that last move and it was 200% better and practical.
    That was the gables, the regulars flew better right from the start, but both needed the pick points much further outboard then I would have thought, very unusual trusses, I don't come across these much thankfully.

    Big job tomorrow morning, and another one the day after Christmas and the rest of the work week, quite the year!
     
  12. Impact

    Impact Senior Member

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    I did the same thing on a pole building a few times setting 80' trusses. We had a left over 6" x 6" post about 24' long. We'd lash the post to the truss with ropes for each and every truss. W/O the stiffback we never could find a pick point that would safely lift the truss. Glad to see you keeping the rig busy. I enjoy watching this thread.
     
  13. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    I have a 30' spreader bar that I like to use on those size trusses, its kind of a pain because I have to have a pickup and trailer haul it to me, but with a 4 point pick and rolling the hitches, its the best way I've found to pick those really floppy trusses.

    I did one building with 65' trusses that were flat like those, and another condo with 90' trusses with the biggest board in them was 2x4. The firewall trusses were built like gable trusses in the 90' and stiffbacks were necessary even with the 30' spreader, there just wasn't any other way.

    These were some short ones I set this fall on a church, the bigger bar and 4 point pick makes a big difference.
    20181016_112547.jpg
     
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  14. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    My thinking on the 14' max spread of my bar, (about all I want to carry onboard) combined with the 20' straps before I even get to the truss rigging itself, is to kind of fool the truss that I'm using a wider spreader bar, by keeping that rigging angle low enough to not introduce too much compression, causing it to bow even more. That's my theory anyway! I had some 78' 2/12 pitch trusses once, we spent most of the morning trying to pick those suckers and nothing was working. Finally we quit for the day, and the next day I came back with a 4" channel iron welded rectangle (20' x 10') and 4 big C clamps. That finally made them fly great, once we got in the swim of things it didn't add much time. The frame had a lift point, so I could fly it away after they had the truss braced. After the job, the channel was salvaged and used for other things, so pretty cost effective. Those trusses were the worse I've ever worked with, thankfully. It's good to hear that others also have to resort to a stiffener at times.
     
  15. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    A big shop, on a icy gloomy day, but zero wind. 1 hour travel one way, a spooky drive, and worse at the end of the day. On the way home I just missed a wreck that had just happened in front of me a minute or so earlier on I-15: one lane blocked, people out walking around (no one hurt, just a spinout into the guard rail) but enough to cause a major blockage if not shutdown once the troopers and the tow trucks showed up. As well as some further wrecks from rubber neckers.

    Pre assembled roof sections, 1 single and two doubles, IMG_20181227_104527104~2.jpg IMG_20181227_120631741~2.jpg IMG_20181227_154653633~2.jpg 9400 lbs. total according to the LMI, up 16' I think it was, with no cross bracing other then 2 " web straps and binders, and I was close enough to get the paint scratched if things went south. But, this crew is good, and I've worked for them many times before, and they pay at the end of the day so what the heck. Everytime I was thinking they better add another strap, they would add two.... so not as scary as it sounds.
     
  16. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    I think this is the longest building I've done, 270', plus or minus, 46' wide. It never got above 20 IMG_20190115_114325647.jpg degrees or so, usually below that, but the framers were tough, and made me feel like a sissy sitting in my heated cab, almost.
     
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  17. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    Looks like santa brought you the same white stuff that tradesman got. It was 50 here today. Supposed to be that tomorrow too. But supposed to get single digits over the weekend at night. We were just south of the big snowstorm central mo. got this past weekend.

    My daughter is at college about 3 hrs north of here, they got 15" - 18" or so. We just got rain and a hour north of here they got ice.

    270' is a really really long building. Looks like a garage/ shop with some doors taller? 46' is pretty short depth for a shop.
     
  18. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    Some commercial shops, only 46' deep but at least twice that in length, so big enough for a lot of small businesses I guess.

    Being the old framer that I am, I noticed the carpenters braced up the gable end and the first 3 trusses, and then just kept setting trusses....just using truss clips to tie the tops together in the usual fashion. Adequate for most length building but this long thing needed more I thought. My experience has been that each truss adds to the surface area, if the wind comes up, and in a building that darn long I felt they had inadequate bracing, but got away with it as we had no wind that day or the next, they got lucky. Sheeted now. We had a building very similar to that one, identical actually, blow down about 20 years here while under construction, the old hands here still remember it!
     
  19. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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    I just will NOT get it, the design engineers cut down on number of trusses to drop expenses then have to use Special fasteners or as shown stand the lumber up between the trusses or as done here On top of the trusses where they use special nails to set them where do not try to roll. Trusses are still Cheap if done correctly for snow load and set to 4' on center IMHO. Custom building Custom ground assembled roof does NOT justify as cost effective to myself but HEY, did make you some coin!!.
     
  20. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    24" OC is the norm here, due to our snow loading. I worked on one super high dollar "cabin" (a 15 million dollar cabin) once that had them on 12", which was a waste of money, like the rest of the place. As a pilot of light planes for years, I maybe have more respect for the wind then most. One little fact: when the wind speed doubles, the energy in it quadruples! So, a bit windier means a lot more push, something most crane operators know also of course, but carpenters, not so much, until they learn the hard way.