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Working the National 1300A

Discussion in 'Cranes' started by Natman, Jan 3, 2017.

  1. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    I've never done it, but I know a guy that did it in a bad spot, he hooked to a tree and winched out. But it was in a old school truck crane, with a stout boom rest. I think your boom rest will be the weak point in a hard pull.

    The rotaters are pretty slick. They are fine if they don't have to swing side loaded, but the swing motors don't like it much if they try to pull a load around if its dragging on the ground.
     
  2. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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  3. JLarson

    JLarson Well-Known Member

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    That's one sketch recovery. Trying to pull something back over with that much boom out is just asking for bad things to happen in several different ways lol.
     
  4. skyking1

    skyking1 Senior Member

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    Knowing what the edges of a box boom look like, I'm surprised they did not see that coming. They are really knife-like.
    If that had not happened and they set the rotator up to dampen out the stand up action, it would have worked.
    Company I worked for in Seattle had flopped a boom truck pouring some columns with way too heavy a bucket too far out. They torched the bent boom off at the bottom extension, flopped it back upright put the boom in the rest and drove it out of there ASAP.
    This was before my time, but it explained how touchy they were as a company with regards to the boom truck business.
     
  5. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    I pulled a 35 ton RT Grove upright that had about 65 ft of stick out. We also had an excavator opposite of me (plenty of room to work) and also a big farm tractor rigged to it, trying to cover all eventualities, and even with all that it was a bit sketchier than I would have liked. Worked out though.
     
  6. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    There's no reason they should have been hooked clear out on the boom. They could have done just as much good with the "uprighting" crane short sticked, and hooked right where the boom cylinder attaches. No where for it to slide the chokers on the boom, and more capacity. They had the wrecker set right to catch it on the way back down.

    I'm sure that's what happened to the nylon, as they started to come up, it slid on the edges of the box and cut it.
     
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  7. skyking1

    skyking1 Senior Member

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    Agreed!
     
  8. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    Two 10 K pound seed bins, with no pick points, need to be moved 2 miles. I told the customer that, to do it right, we'd need two boom trucks, as tipping the thing over for transport was going to be the hard part...I got the impression he was thinking I could just side load my boom and force it over, ain't going to happen. They were originally delivered by the manufacturer on a flat bed trailer, that was designed to stand vertical to offload them. Which gave me an idea: the rancher no doubt has a trailer, probably several, and of different types. Why couldn't I pick the trailer, so it was hanging vertical, swing it over to the bin, and have them bind the heck out of it to the bin. Then I got make a quick reset, so that when I boomed back and winched down, I could nudge it towards me off vertical, while being directly lined up with it. We could have other equipment, trucks or tractors, to safety the trailer from rolling or tipping in an uncontrolled fashion, while this happened. The load would get closer to me as I let it down, with no side loading, and I'd never be picking the entire weight of both the trailer and the bin.

    Once at the site, the opposite would happen, and again extra equipment to keep things from getting too exciting, control any over center movement etc. We have tried to contact the manufacturer, but they have not responded, the original plan the rancher had was to hire a pro welder to weld 4 pick points onto each tank, but that'd still leave the tipping it over issue, which I feel he thinks is no big deal but I do. Two cranes isn't an option most likely, too far out. I have not heard back from him since I came up with my idea, and that doesn't break my heart at all as I am inclined to take a pass on this one, we'll see. Also, he told me he thought they weighed 10K, I'm not doing anything until I get a confirmation on that direct from their builder. output.jpg
     
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  9. skyking1

    skyking1 Senior Member

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    4 pick points and two drums. Lift it up and then trip it using the two lines.
    EDIT: I see you are single drum. DOH, silly suggestion.
     
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  10. hosspuller

    hosspuller Senior Member

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    Better to pass than break something or hurt someone. Passing is hard for "can-do" problem solver personalities of which this forum is full of.
     
  11. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    Option #1:

    30' long 3/4" steel choker or nylon, big steel semi tire and rim. 2' piece of 4"x4" steel 3/8" wall or so, larger than the rim. Drop choker through center hole, through semi rim, and around steel tubing. Pull the rim up to the bottom of the hopper, and lift tank. Trip it with a big loader and two chains on the legs.

    Using a nylon through the hole risks it getting chewed up, but it will spread out the load on the upper lid ring. I'd probably use steel.

    If the loader is big enough, he can hold the legs while you back a trailer under it. If he isn't, lay the hopper on two straps and pick up the whole tank to load. Looks like a farm so they surely have a big loader. If he can't totally handle his end when tripping, because the loader isn't big enough, just tip the hopper enough with the loader, and keep the "bottom" legs on the ground.

    A rim on its own is probably large enough without the tire. I can't see the bottom opening because someone has their ugly truck in the way. More than likely there's a slide on the bottom, it will have to come off. We used to have a 4x4 square tubing welded in a cross, with angle iron welded to the top. The angle irons would catch the outside of the hopper- similar to the rim so the cross couldn't slide around. In a pinch I've done it with just a single long piece of I-beam or such, across the opening, but that point loads the ring pretty good, and tends to slide around.

    Option #2 :

    I have done water tanks with a pair of chokers on a single line. Looking from the top, choke at 10:30 and 1:30. Choke them at about 3-4' down from the top of the tank. You'll have to use chains or another nylon and chain back down to the legs, so the upper chokers bite and don't slide off the top of the tank. Pick it up and is going to naturally tip. Loader would be nice, but I've also just got them swinging on same radius, stick the bottom legs, and follow it on over, using the momentum to bring them over.

    Option #3

    Long chokers from the hook to two of the legs, also at 10:30 and 1:30. Trap those chokers with another chain or choker with binder that goes around the tank, 3-4' down from the top of the tank. That top tank line is going to have to be tight. As you lay over, that top line is going to want to go "down" the tank, so I'd have another line that went from the top "band" chain, to around the center lid to hold it so it won't go down the tank. This is kind of rigging like you would rig a pole, a choke at the bottom and a half hitch toward the top, the choke on the side so its going to go over.


    Option #1 is the easiest way to stand them back up, because once your up, it hangs straight. But if its got a welded on slide gate on the bottom of the hopper, they aren't cutting all that off. If you use #2 or #3 to stand back up, move the lines to more like 9:00 and 3:00 and it will hang a lot straighter once its up, but you may not be able to hold them out there. If you move the chokers to 9 and 3 on the way up, you're going to need a spreader bar. If the guy is going to be moving these a bunch, two three or four picking eyes on the sidewall to roof joint, is the way to go. And he provides the loader. .

    However you lay it down, a loader is going to make it 10x easier. But sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

    Also, almost all my tripping has been done with 25-35-45 ton grove truck cranes/ or rt's, on smaller tanks like that. So I've always had plenty of crane and those booms are stout so I could kind of "bull" the tank around. I would have concerns about your rig, especially trying to swing / hook it on the ground/ and follow the tank over by yourself. That gets some side load on it.

    Tying the trailer to the tank and then setting it over sounds like a huge pain in the a$$. I don't think I'd do that.

    IMG_20210328_072320896.jpg IMG_20210328_072330295.jpg IMG_20210328_072340375.jpg
     
  12. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    When I first got the call, I thought it was one of the corrugated type, light gauge, bins, which I have picked with a mounted truck tire that was able to fit inside the larger access door, rigged to, and then pulled up against the inside conical top. A farmer came up with the idea. They were much lighter and smaller units though. I at first thought the same here, then I saw that they don't have an opening large enough to get the tire in, so gave it up. Your #1 idea of using the same technique, but with the wheel on the outside bottom should work, assuming the tank has a clear shot to drop the cable thru and the bottom shutter is not an issue. As would #2 and #3, but I like #1 the best, pretty straightforward and that always seems to be best in rigging most things. Problem is, I can't pick 10K from 40'+ away, (just 8, at most) which I would need to do initially to trip it, once set up far enough so I could lay it down towards me. I think I will pass on this one, I'm plenty busy without it this week, plus the site is on the other side of the Port of Entry and over a big pass, generally a PITA to get to, but I will text him back and pass along the #1 idea to him for a bigger crane to use, thanks a lot.

    I may have scared him off when I suggested the picking the trailer up scheme, I have not heard back from him yet on the idea! If I was younger and hungrier, I'd have a larger rig in addition to the 30 ton National, but it keeps me busy enough, and is paid for. It's hard to pass up work but this won't be the first time. EDIT: I'm sure I could do it......if I HAD to, don't have to.
     
  13. skyking1

    skyking1 Senior Member

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    Yes an older 1800 with two drums is kind of a small crane dream machine for me. Ness has one and had it on my job for a few days while my boom truck was down. Way less money than one of the newer 50 or 60 ton machines
     
  14. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    I like the chart on the 1800, but you can take the 25' outrigger span and stick it. Won't fit in a driveway, won't fit on a street. That and the older ones have too short of jacks. And half outriggers don't help if you still can't clear the ctw. I've been tickled with my grove 500e. I'll take the 500's 7,000lbs of ctw. with only a 20' outrigger span, vs the 1800 with 24' outriggers and 2,300lbs of ctw.

    But my 500e won't run 65mph down the road either. Everything has trade offs. I do regret not holding out on finding a 500e with both winches, I only have one, and two is nice for tripping smaller tanks by yourself. I don't use two winches very often, but when you do need both, nothing else is quite as handy.
     
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  15. Tradesman

    Tradesman Senior Member

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    I can see you progressing as an artist. Some of your early pieces are rather rudimentary but I an see your work getting more refined as time goes by.:D
    Keep up the good work.
    PS. I think everyone on the forum appreciates the considerable effort you put into your responses.
    Thanks..
     
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  16. skyking1

    skyking1 Senior Member

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    Coming from wide ass boom trucks I don't even think like that. 20' is just a dream.
     
  17. Knepptune

    Knepptune Senior Member

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    In my past life as a crane operator I’ve been known to attach a strap to the eye for the hoist line on the boom head to trip tanks. Use the winch to pick it up, attach strap from the boom head to bottom of tank and hoist down. The eye on the boom is rated for the same amount of weight as the single line pull. Gives you two lift points with only one winch.

    Done that quite a few times.
     
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  18. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    I can see that working also. I could get right close to it, with the boom at about a 75 degree angle, run out the amount of boom I figured to need when laying it down, to avoid extending under load, pick it with the winch, then take up any slack in the fixed rigging from the boom tip to the tank bottom with adjustable chain rigging, then cable down. The shorter tip rigging to the tank bottom tips the tank over center, and I winch down/boom down. with someone eyeballing from the side to keep my load line plumb. Seems like there would be minimal chance for slack in the winch line and a big shock load, and I'd be working like i should, all squared up to the load. If I felt the need, I could also rig to the tank bottom to a big tractor, the kind with 8 tires, common as Ford pickups where the job is.

    Standing it back up.....I'd be within my load chart at the start, only picking a fraction of the 10 K total weight, until it got off the ground, and by that time I'd be boomed back and good for it's total weight up to 30' away.

    I don't think I mentioned that I was told that the tanks were originally delivered by their manufacturer on custom trailers, that tilted back until the tank base was on the ground, then unsecured, and the trailed tilted back down, that's what gave me my trailer idea. I'm going to continue to sit tight, the balls in his court, if he gets back to me AND we get a 10K weight factory confirmed, I still may do it. Any obstructions at both the new and old sites would need to checked out, for anything in the way. It may be an excuse to fly over there, 20 min, over a mountain range in a straight line, versus an hour drive around the range.
     
  19. Mobiltech

    Mobiltech Senior Member

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    He probably called a guy with a bin moving trailer.
     
  20. Natman

    Natman Senior Member

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    Like they are common? Not around here anyway. More likely got a bigger crane. There is a large phosphate plant in the area with many cranes of all sizes working there often, probably snagged one of them.

    50 mph winds here today, and for some reason my scheduled truss setting job is backing out. If I don't get busy on a project at home, I may throw the dog in the Prius and drive over there. It's always fun to drive up to a job in the Prius, I can see people thinking that maybe I'm not the guy for the job, and then prove them wrong. 58 MPG, though if I drove the Silverado 1 ton flatbed, it'd make a better first impression!