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who makes the BEST dozer

Joined
Mar 9, 2007
Messages
415
Location
Joliette,Québec,Canada
Occupation
Student
it`s been a long time that i read this topic and personnally,i think that everybody think that a particular brand make the best dozer.For example,i would prefer the visibility of the new d51px but i would choose another one because it`s more tough,durable and offer more options or something like that,well,there is juste my opinion...
 

Iron Slinger

Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
8
Location
Single Star
Komatsu is a force out there. The new D51EX-22 is a true "finish dozer" you will not find a machine with the visibility and power that this tractor has
 
Joined
Mar 9, 2007
Messages
415
Location
Joliette,Québec,Canada
Occupation
Student
Komatsu is a force out there. The new D51EX-22 is a true "finish dozer" you will not find a machine with the visibility and power that this tractor has



well,i think that there will be some competition between the Deere 764HSD and the komatsu D51ex-22.They are all finish dozer but i don`t know who will be more versatile.IS an articulated frame would be better than a rigid chassis with metal track?
 

Construct'O

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
928
Location
SW Iowa
Occupation
Dozerwork,tiling plus many more!!!!!!!
Their will be places that the Deere will be handicapped because of its length in tight places.Not sure how it will do on steep slopes?

In speed and just finish work would go to the Deere.Just a couple thoughts.Carry on !!!!:usa
 

Deas Plant

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
1,533
Location
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Horses for courses.

Hi, Folks.
Over the last 12 to 15 years, we have seen the evolvement of what amounts to a whole new class of dozer, the 'finish' dozer. Various people talk about the virtues of various machines and, like most other things in life, it depends largely upon your own personal tastes and preferences One thing does amuse me a little about all the 'palaver' that goes on about this topic though. That is all the talk about 'suitability'.

Back in the days when I first started operating dozers, there were no 'finish' dozers as such. The 'finish' dozer was whatever happened to be under you at the time. The man who taught me most about operating dozers once shaped a drive-in movie theatre car park with a cable angle-blade 3T series Cat D7 dozer - - - - travelling across the ripples - - - without a tilt cylinder on the blade. Not only did he shape the sub-grade but he also spread the road base - BOTH 5" layers of it - the same way. And they cleaned up after him and finished the job ready for bitumen spray and stone-chip seal with a 3 point linkage grader blade behind a Ferguson tractor and a 3-point roller.

The same man and a friend of his levelled and trimmed a 100 yard square factory site with 2 3T series D7's with cable angle blades using boning rods for levels and they were within +/- ONE INCH all over it.

I personally have done house sites, factory sites, roads and school play grounds to similar tolerances with similar machines. I once excavated a pit for a new weighbridge with a Cat D9G semi-U blade dozer to +/- an inch and there was no ground at the same level on either side of the blade for reference 'cos the trench was ONE blade width wide and 2 1/2 feet deep by 55 feet long. (Trucks in those days in that part of the world had a length limit of 50 feet.) We used the D9G partly because the pit was in rippable shale and partly 'cos that was what we had available that would do the job quickest

I spent some of my mis-spent youth sinking farm dams with dozers ranging from D4 2T series through to D9G's, mostly with Cat D8's. Left-over windrows 2" high were counted as a ROUGH job and banks and batters were ripple-free as a matter of both course and pride.

I have 'graded' haul roads in all sorts of materials with everything from D4D's to D11R's and I have been told by several people that you can't trim with a D11 'cos they're too big. I have also been told that you can't trim with a 'Kummagutsa' D575 for the same reason. I'd love to get my ample butt on a D575 for a while, just for the challenge. I just LOVE being told I can't do something with a particular machine. He, he, he, he, he, hee.

I recently spent almost 2 1/2 years levelling house pads to +/- 3/4 of an inch maximum with a wide gauge Cat D5B dozer while other operators in the same company were using Cat 943's and 953's with spreader bars to do the same work. I count the earlier work with the older cable blade machines a greater challenge.

And now we have laser- and GPS-controlled dozers which the operator just steers but have the working tolerances improved much, if any?

My point is this - to me, a 'finish' dozer - or any 'finish' machine - is whatever you happen to have your butt upon at the time. ANY operator worth his - or her - pay packet will do the best job he/she can with whatever machine he/she has available at the time. He/she may whinge about the machine, or the job, or the boss, or even all of the above BUT he/she will do it and do it well. THAT is one of the hallmarks of a TRUE operator.

Thank you, Soapbox.
 

Iron Slinger

Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
8
Location
Single Star
Nicely put Deas Plant. I tend to agree with you.
On the other hand, todays generation is relying heavily on dozers with greater visibility. Alot of it is driven by the tight quarters in which operators are working in today. In the big cities they are building amongst buildings.
I am blessed with the opportunity to do business with a few people that have the knowledge and experience that you have. I am always delighted to hear how it used to be, it makes me realize how good we have it today.
-Iron Slinger
 

DirtHauler

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
507
Location
Seattle WA
Occupation
Heavy Highway Dirt Hauler
American workers do, actually Union workers do, that is who makes the best dozer in the world.
 

Neil D

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Messages
114
Location
Richhill,Co Armagh
Occupation
contractor
Deas,you know sometimes your posts are a bit long winded etc but this time you are absolutely spot on you old devil !!!!

There is no way I will ever be as good an operator as you but I am gonna try.
One thing that will help me is the fact that most of my work will never involve GPS systems which means the old grey cells get a workout. This is the problem I see with these new systems,they take away the driving skills until someday they will start paying peanuts because all they will need is monkeys to pull levers.

Neil
 

DirtWorker

Active Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
31
Location
Ontario Canada
Ok here is what i think. For me finish/trim dozer-ing is all about feel in the seat. Take this for example, the new dx 51 has its cab justified to the front of the tractor, while the old Cat C's,B,s and G's have you sit in the back. To me this gives me a better sense in the seat when i need to correct. This new Komatsu you sit in the middle and to me never run the px or dx 51 would take away from the feel. Take a swing set for example sit your butt in the middle and swing then sit back and see if you can notice the different im talking about. to of blade visibility means nothing to me. It may to you. So in short im a CAT man trough and trough. But i can say this, the Komatsu 37 i ran is the only dozer of my knowledge that when you have the blade tilted all the way left or right material doesn't flow around the blade and high sides your track. It also didnt have a turbo, we all know turbos eat the fuel. This little baby was inner and after cooled. I liked Deeres 450 h for its power and quick hydraulics. But again the seat was just to far to the center for my feel. Who knows maby im just set in the ways that i learned. The way i see it it wont matter much what the brand soon enough just who has the most fuel efficient dozer. And to me komatsu has that handled these days. But ill stick with my Cat.
 

Deas Plant

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
1,533
Location
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Trying to catch up.

Hi, Neil D.
Thanks for the compliments, both back-handed and fore-handed. LOL.

You say that you'll never be as good an operator as I am. May I suggest that you don't judge yourself too harshly. I've had a LOTTA practice now to get where I am and there are quite possibly some things that you are still better at anyway, especially in your neck of the woods with its different conditions from the ones I'm used to here in Australia.

And, if you're trying to catch up to me, who am I trying to catch up to? I seriously doubt that I'm the best in the world, so there is somebody better than me somewhere. Would you please have him/her stand up and show him/herself so that I can know who I am chasing and how much I have to improve? LOL.

I have a different approach to that one. I don't try to be better than anybody else. I just try to be better than me. Does that makes sense? And that comes from analyzing what you are doing and the results that you are getting from what you're doing and then working out how you can do it better next time. So, rather than trying to catch up to me or anybody else, try to (sur)pass yourself.
 

Burnout

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
1,448
Location
Edmonton AB
Occupation
Operator at Sureway Construction
Whats a Finish Dozer? Even when I gre up (end of the 80's to the 90's) my old man told me our finish dozer was whatever was sitting there. Now I work for a company that we consider a D8N or a 9N our finish dozers when we leave a site, I have been told to grade near and around a house with my 973 while the guy across the street is doin it with a little 450 Deere.

I look now at whats considered a finish dozer ie. a D51, Deere 450, Cat 3G and I think small dozers have been getting bigger over the years. Back here in Ontario guys are still running old Deere 350's and International TD7's with open cabs. I always thought they were the true finish dozers for smaller site grading, you could be one with the land and truly feel the ground as you were grading. The company I work for now, our smallest dozer is a custom D4H with 36" pads, open cab and a monster of a wide blade on it, and I find you can't really feel the ground like you can with those little old dozers of yesteryear. But in the same token I have now learned to do finish work with a D8N.

I think yeah the technology is getting amazing for equipment, especially for my generation that loves the gizmo's and electronics and nice machines, but like what was said above, are the tolerances getting better? I had a chat with one of the Cat guys at Con Expo about it. Guys on our sites complain about equipment more than a couple years old because its not equipped to do the job we need to do, but its been doing the job for 20 or 30 years already in some cases. Do we really need all this new fangled technology? My buddy started up a trim dozing company a few years ago when he got out of college. He went and bought an old 450-C JD, we fixed it up, rebuilt the engine, put a nice high back seat in it, in total he had 7000 dollars in a dozer that he still charges 90 bucks an hour for, and it's paid for itself.
 

Northart

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
761
Location
Talkeetna, Alaska
Finish Dozer ?

Definition of a Finish Dozer ?

Its the dozer most suited to the task at hand.

For example , a Cat D4C,G Hystat for residential, commercial site work.

A Cat D6C,D,M,N,K class size machine for Hyway cleanup and finishing.

A Cat D8K,R,T for pipeline, large land restoration projects. The Angle dozers are most suited here.

So it is the size of machine that matters, in relation to the size of the job. Small dozers for small jobs ,and large dozers for the large jobs. No one size, fits all, as in baseball caps.

Then again, somedays just have to use the equipment that is available.
 

WabcoMan

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
258
Location
New Zealand
Occupation
Heavy equipment parts manager
Deere dozers are great, well balanced and a pleasure to operate.
I don't much care for the larger Cat's in ripping as they tend to ride around on the front idlers.
My old Terex 82-30 did a better job of ripping, you could bury the shanks in no time and it just kept going.
My 2c worth
WabcoMan
 

MUDSLINGERS

Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Oklahoma
Occupation
Finish dozer operator
I totally agree with it is what machine is under your pants at the time!! When I started really getting into cutting grade in Arizona D8 to D11 was what the old timers made me first start on, and after a while I found it easier on a big dozer than a little one!!! Then I moved backed to Oklahoma and started running smallier dozers and cat was great, until I got on 41 komatsu and I fell in love cause I could see more, and it felt more balanced.. Here about a month ago my company bought me the new 51ex, and guys I'm telling you I have not been on a better finish dozer!!! I can see everything, and enjoy the balance, and it is just the most comfortable dozer I have ever been on!!! I know I still have alot of years to go before I call myself a finish operator, but this machine is awsome!!!!!!
 

Deas Plant

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
1,533
Location
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
How high a premium on visibility???????????????

Hi, Iron Slinger.
Welcome to the forum.

I first started operating when I was 12 on a gas/kero Cat 22 and a gas only Cat 20. On both of these, even a little tacker like I was then could see both corners of the blade and the ground behind the cutting edge between the tracks and the engine. Easy. Then I gradutated to a 2T series D4 - 1945 vintage with an angle blade. Again, pretty good visibility. Next came a 3T Cat D7 and an Allis Chalmers HD16A, both with angle blades and both with pretty fair vision to the blade. Still easy.

While I was running the HD16, I got to have a 2-hour play with a D9G. Culture shock! The closest part of the back of the blade to the ground that you could see was 10" - TEN inches - above the ground. I was surprised at how easy it was to judge that distance with just a little practice.

Then I got to play with my first Cat D8H 46A dozer with a semi-U blade and the corners and the back of the blade were still visible. Easy again. Then I started spending a LOT more time on D9G's and eventually D9H's and I learned to like the fact that I couldn't see the cutting edge or any part of the blade even near it. Coupled with that up-sloping hood, there was a fair bit of real estate in front of the machine that you just could not see. To me, it was a challenge.

Then I got on my first Cat wheeled dozer, an 824. About the only part of the blade that you could see when it was on the ground was the top of it. I learned to do some pretty neat work with that too. Likewise with the Cat 815 and 825 compactors where all you can see is the top of the blade.

I once was sent to spread fresh crushed blue rock sand on a trotting training track with a 25 year old 2U Cat D8 with a rather worn, loose and sloppy cable angle blade. Now THAT was interesting. It was the first time I had seen that particular machine and I didn't know any of its tricks and vagaries. It's a good thing they had a tractor with a 3-pl grader blade there to tidy up. I got it close but there would still likely have been some shin-sore horses if they'd used it straight after I'd done my best that jigger. But I did get to do some fairly fiddly work with it later on.

Now I might ruffle a few feathers here but I'm going to say it anyway. For mine, a 'finish dozer operator' just isn't a FINISH dozer operator until he or she can do it with whatever is available that will fit into the work space with room to work. Sure, it's all well and nice to have good visibility, balance, A/C cabs and all the rest of it but I still reckon that being a real operator is about being able to the job well with whatever is available and without all the fancy gizmos if need be.

Just my 0.02.
 

stretch

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
784
Location
Southington, CT
Occupation
gopher
Now I might ruffle a few feathers here but I'm going to say it anyway. For mine, a 'finish dozer operator' just isn't a FINISH dozer operator until he or she can do it with whatever is available that will fit into the work space with room to work. Sure, it's all well and nice to have good visibility, balance, A/C cabs and all the rest of it but I still reckon that being a real operator is about being able to the job well with whatever is available and without all the fancy gizmos if need be.

Just my 0.02.

:notworthy More words of wisdom from HEF's wise monk. :drinkup
 

AtlasRob

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,982
Location
West Sussex UK
Occupation
owner operator
Hi, Neil D.
Thanks for the compliments, both back-handed and fore-handed. LOL.

I don't try to be better than anybody else. I just try to be better than me. Does that makes sense? And that comes from analyzing what you are doing and the results that you are getting from what you're doing and then working out how you can do it better next time. So, rather than trying to catch up to me or anybody else, try to (sur)pass yourself.

Deas, that has got to be one of the best responses to a serious compliment that I have heard in a long time. :notworthy
All you young uns take note. As usual he is right 100% :thumbsup
There will always be somebody better than you can learn something from. The day you stop learning is the day you need to find another occupation cause you will have just found out you are in the wrong one :D :IMO
 

Northart

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
761
Location
Talkeetna, Alaska
Flogging ?

Well, long as we're flogging the subject. Let me flog it some more.

" For mine, a 'finish dozer operator' just isn't a FINISH dozer operator until he or she can do it with whatever is available that will fit into the work space with room to work "

I do not know of any female dozer operators here. They all want to run loaders,compactors, etc. Rubber tired equipment.

It takes a skilled operator , meaning talent(Operating Skills) plus dirt moving experience, to create a finish grade. The different soil types, sand,gravel,clay, rock,organic, all need to be worked differently. It takes talent and experience to cut finish grade for floor slabs,building pads,with tight tolerances. Those same skills are necessary in clean up and topsoil spreading,for hyway work. Got to have an eye for drainage. Remembering no duck ponds or bird baths when you are all done. Balance the material and make it fit. All comes with experience, little by little.

Then the talent or creativity , some people just have it and other never do. To clean up a borrow pit , or road job, where it looks like a bomb had went off or war took place, into something beautiful, scenic, and eye pleasing , takes some thought. Challenging to say the least.

Then of course machine selection for the task, is important to say the least. It's got to be able to fit ( Size) in the work space, required, and also be productive (Size again).:)

Well, I almost missed touching on the GPS,Laser guided dozers. Yes, they shorten the time required for task, but it still takes spatial skills , understanding how the job is to look when done.

Well , in summary, 'Spatial Skills" is the key word. Understanding how the job is to look when done. :)

I always thought my high school Plane Geometry, was most valuable in my career. Definitive form and free form, just in understanding those mathematical terms. :)
 

Neil D

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Messages
114
Location
Richhill,Co Armagh
Occupation
contractor
compliments

Deas,you are a hard man to get the better of LOL.

What I was trying to get across was that I can appreciate from your posts you know exactly what you are doing operating a machine. I have never seen your operating skills so I am not saying you are the number one and I want to steal your "crown" as it were. I am stating that you and a lot of the other guys on this board have my greatest respect as you all are grouped together as a bunch of highly competant operators. I am not into this crap of one man being totally above the rest-I find in my business it is great to work with other guys who are all thinking together with the job flowing like clockwork and running safely because we trust each other. As you know Deas from earlier posts I have been around various machines all my working life but it is only now at the age of 49 I have the chance to run my own big dozer and scrapers. So what I meant earlier was that no matter how hard I try I will never have the seat time that you and rest of the gang have-its also easier to admit this now rather than be reminded of it by you lot,lol.

So have a nice day
Regards
Neil
 
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