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Who Backdrags?

ok dirt witcher

Active Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
27
Location
Oklahoma
Occupation
owner operator dozer service
Backdragging!!!

If backdragging is such a NO! NO! and I do understand that there is some wear on undercarriages but wouldn't useing back-up rippers be just as bad if not worse? I know a lot of operators who use them and thinking of getting them on my next machine along with a winch.
 

Deas Plant

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
1,533
Location
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Now you've gone and done it.

Hi, OK Dirt Witcher.
Now you've gone and done it. You WEREN'T supposed to mention anything like that 'cos it puts a crimp in the argumets of the anti-back-dragging lobby. Likewise, nobody was supposed to mention backing up steep slopes as being a track killer.

From where I stand, it seems that the track wear argument against working in reverse applies a LOT more to oval-track machines than to high-sprocket drives 'cos a high-sprocket drive CAN'T bunch the track up between itself and the rear track roller. A high-sprocket drive exerts more or less the same forces on the track chain and the idlers whichever way it is driving. With this in mind, if you want back-up rippers on your next machine, maybe you ought to consider a high-sprocket drive machine - - - just NOT the Chinese imitations. I have some pieces of transmission gears from one of them on top of my bookcase. They had 800 hours up.
 

ok dirt witcher

Active Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
27
Location
Oklahoma
Occupation
owner operator dozer service
I thought!! LOL

:rolleyes: I was wondering if that might not get minds turning and gears rattling????:Banghead:) It's like that thing-of-ma-jig that keeps that bull gear from jumpin that heifer cob! LOL
 

WV_Logger

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
7
Location
Hacker Valley, WV
we contract log here in wv and we actually contracted for one land company where we had to back drag EVERY road on the job, when you leave youre not supposed to see a dozer or skidder track anywhere
 

HoJay

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
78
Location
the west
We do alot of road building and when we reclaim our borrow pits the topsoil is pretty muddy and we have to backblade out the ruts. Kinda tough to get around it when the cats are leaving foot and a half ruts blading forward.
 

Dozer575

Banned
Joined
Mar 2, 2007
Messages
274
Location
Seattle, wa
Occupation
Machinist and occasional pt Dozer oper
Anyone that never back drags, has never done finish work.
You can not compact with track ruts. Period.
 

Deas Plant

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
1,533
Location
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Compacting with track ruts

Hello, Dozer 575,
I may be just an old dinosaur but, for mine, if you still need major compaction effort after you've trimmed, you've missed a step or 3 in the process. Also, if you have a smallish area like a house pad with cut banks of 3' - 4' or more with a spoon drain at the bottom on two sides and spill slope drop-offs of 3' - 4' or more on the other two sides, how do you get rid of the left-over material under your blade without putting more track marks on your 'finished' surface and how do you back drag right to the edges. As you go over the edge, your blade is going to come off the ground leaving a nasty lump of loose material there which you then have to get back up on the pad to push off, leaving more track marks. Catch 22.

The above is why we use track loaders with 4-in-1 buckets and spreader bars or excavbators with spreader bars for all our house pad work - and we do a bit, around 600 a year for just one customer and we'd have a hundred or more customers.

Yes, I did use a Cat D5B dozer for 2 1/2 years doing house pads but I never back dragged a single house pad to finish it with that dozer - or any other. Just track roll in 1 foot layers to compact and trim it going forward. Why bother? You should see what the plumbers do to the pad straight after we leave.

Just my - humble - 0.02.
 

reddog848

Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
38
Location
Canton, Tx
Occupation
retired
Hey Deas, I have all the respect in the world for your opinion but I just have to put my .02 in here. I also do pads and I use a BD2G. I backdrag to the edge and just after my tracks start to leave and the front comes up I just put the blade down to bring the spoil with me over the edge, then keep it moving just a few feet to make it smooth. Doesn't make it right but it works for me here in Texas.
By the way.....I saw an opinion that you gave on the history of "Old Caterpillers" today and your knowledge is fantastic. I'm 70 and wish I had a fraction of the things you have knowledge of stored in your head. I learn from you every day on here, Thanks!! Keep feeding the info..never too old to learn OR change!!
Reddog848
 

RTSmith

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
421
Location
Middle Tenn.
Occupation
Amateur demolition & dirt pusher
And you know- It sounded like such an easy question. Whudda thunk?? And yes- I've learned lots from this threasd, and learned there's a lot more I need to learn.
 

Northart

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
761
Location
Talkeetna, Alaska
Backdragging ?

Holy cow, I can't believe:) the length of this discussion.

Never knew I could get fired for back dragging till today, 39 years later . LOL :)

The 800 Mile Trans Alaska Pipeline was built, with Angle Dozer D8K's, D8h's doing the final clean up. finishing it. And they backdragged every bit of it. No dozer tracks when they got done.

I was there doing my share of it.

You can't get off the pad or ROW to push from behind the spoil pile for backfilling. Most of the time. Some places you could.

The trick to making a smooth pass in varying underfoot conditions is to use every technique possible.

If your track ruts are very deep, then you have to apply some down pressure to get the material to fill in your ruts.
Sometimes backing up in sweeping arcs, like buttering toast.

In sands use hold and float at varying times , to avoid heavy windrows .

In gravels use slight down pressure, float, and hold at varying times.

When you have a pile at the edge, or a cut to make, just take a little at a time , don't expect to do it all at once.

On gravel windrows, the height of the windrow will tell you when you can float, hold, or apply down pressure to spread it out smoothly across the width of the blade without creating new windrows.

Onto commercial work, finish grading for floor slabs was always done by backdragging,with small dozers. Of course the new laser and GPS controls help eliminate lot of that. But the final passes still cannot have the grouser indentations.

Never heard of Cats losing their prime during start up. Working on steep slopes , I've know D7's and D9's to lose their prime, and a wild backward downhill ride at that. Overfilling the transmission was the cure. Yes, old hoses with cracks will leak allowing air to get in, and lose prime. Sometimes the sync pump had to be replaced.

Backdragging doesn't create any tremendous work load , unless you have lots of down pressure. It's just the weight of the dozer blade. On loose material.

If you need to move a lot of material,or heavy cutting , of course then forward doze.

But as in landscaping work on road work, or pipeline work , with the varying soil conditions and tight ROW's , finishing is accomplished by backdragging.

Almost forgot, the D8K Angle Dozer and D6C Angle Dozers were my favorite for cleanup or finishing work . Now the new PAT D-4,5,6 dozers are the choice. Much more agile, for the narrow confines .

Anyway, that's what I've got to add . :usa
 

Iron Horse

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
761
Location
,
Does anyone make a curved blade to mount onto the ripper tynes to back drag while going forwards ? Ive seen them on tractor pulled stone crushers for rehabilitating gravel roads . It seems to me on big runs like that pipe line it would be be a real time saver . And one that could be angled would bring the spoils into the center .
 

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Deas Plant

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
1,533
Location
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Back dragging horses for courses

Hi, Reddog848.
Thank you for your kind comments about my posts and my knowledge of Caterpillar. Things like that make it all a bit more worthwhile doing what I do here,

I have LIVED earthmoving and construction machinery as well as operating them for well over 40 years now. I guess a little bit of it musta stuck between my ears. Ah well, there's p[lenty of room for it in there. LOL.

The length of the machine, its point of balance and the slope of the batter that you are going over make quite a difference to whether or not you can keep your blade on the ground to take your material over the edge with you. A smaller, shorter machine may well have a bit of an advantage here and a machine with no ripper will be way ahead of one with a ripper.

The Cat D5B that I mentioned had quite a substantial ripper fitted to it. Without it, I would not have been able to do a lot of jobs that I did. But it didn't make dragging material over a drop any easier.

Also, almost all of our jobs are spill slope batters, at least while we are cleaning up and trimming. If there is enough pad area outside the actual house area, we will sometimes cut a bit flatter batter for appearance sake. But, as I mentioned in my earlier post, you should see what the plumbers do to a pad when they come in after us.

Keep on havin' fun, M8.
 

reddog848

Active Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
38
Location
Canton, Tx
Occupation
retired
Deas, just keep the info and knowledge coming... I ain't ready to stop learning yet. A lot of things may be bigger here in Texas but it's not our brains, we need to keep feeding them information. Thanks again for all you do here!!
Reddog848
 

freewheeler

New Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2008
Messages
4
Location
Illinois basin
Just about everybody backdrags in the coal mine where I work, when your running a fill and you get to the end you back up to start over, back drag your back to smooth up for the trucks and smash rocks because the tires on a Euclid260 or a cat 793 go for upwards of 20 grand. Use the machine whatever works get-r-done!
 

Colorado Digger

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
1,169
Location
Carbondale,co
i agree use the machine how it works best. if you've got to backdrag in a big dozer to flatten out for the shovel or haul trucks that's fine. back draggin 2 miles of road, maybe think about putting a blade to it or time for some fresh material. finish dozers backdrag all the time- windrows- mud, material in corners or against wall. i do believe the dozer is designed to work by pushing but sometimes a backdrag is necessery
 

LowBoy

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
1,149
Location
Southern Vt. on the Mass./NH borders
Occupation
Owner, Iron Mountain Iron & Equipment (Transport)
Just my .02 cents. Backdragging is a natural act, and a good dozer man doesn't have to explain or defend himself on this issue. Pushing a pass and backblading a pass is simply a matter of good efficiency and utilizing every pass you make. You do what works, as long as it's productive and not abusive; two most important things to remember in operations. No two people do things exactly the same either.

I've heard the buzz about never digging over drive motors with excavators, running graders at warp speeds and having the end result be perfect, and so on. Sometimes according to conditions, and we are all guilty of it...the rules have to be broken...but it doesn't mean the equipment has to be either.

No matter how high tech this world becomes and how operator friendly the machines get, there will never be a substitute for smoothness, attention to detail, and common sense when running anything from a plate compactor to a D-10. It's all in the operator's hands at that point. Want to build a good reputation with your company/owners/customers, then pay attention to detail. Want to do the opposite...just run it like you stole it, like a lot of them do. It'll show.
 

dieseldave

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
337
Location
egg harbor NJ
running graders at warp speeds and having the end result be perfect

That reminds me of a local guy, the best operator that ever lived (if you have any doubts, just ask him :rolleyes:), who swears that the only way to fine grade with a dozer is at max speed. Apparently, the idea is to sort of "sling" the dirt into place- maybe he's working off the same theory as the mach 2 grader guys? Anyway, I've never seen any of his "finished" work, but I've heard stories...:eek: I wonder if he backdrags, hafta ask the next time I run into him.
 

LowBoy

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
1,149
Location
Southern Vt. on the Mass./NH borders
Occupation
Owner, Iron Mountain Iron & Equipment (Transport)
That reminds me of a local guy, the best operator that ever lived (if you have any doubts, just ask him :rolleyes:), who swears that the only way to fine grade with a dozer is at max speed. Apparently, the idea is to sort of "sling" the dirt into place- maybe he's working off the same theory as the mach 2 grader guys? Anyway, I've never seen any of his "finished" work, but I've heard stories...:eek: I wonder if he backdrags, hafta ask the next time I run into him.

I know the type really well dieseldave. This "slinging" theory...My dad used to achieve the same looking results dragging around an old set of bedsprings with cinderblocks wired to them for weight years ago...:p
 
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