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What is Optimum Operating Speed for Excavator?

swampdog

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
393
Location
Canada
I've had this Hitachi EX270 LC for a few years. It has a Hino engine hooked to two Kawasaki hydraulic pumps. The automatic speed control modes never have worked on it since I bought it. So I control the speed with the hand throttle.

The machine does not have a tachometer and I do not want to overrev the engine or pumps. I know the engine should have a governor, but without a tach, it's hard to say at what RPM the engine is governed at.

Usually, I run the engine on the slow side, but well above lugging it. But in heavier digging it works a lot better and faster at higher RPMs.

Does it hurt an excavator to run it below full throttle, or even at half throttle? How about at full throttle? Is that harder on the engine, pumps, and other parts?

Opinions and experiences appreciated!!
 

sultan

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
298
Location
Ontario, Canada
Provided that the throttle lever is calibrated right, running it at full power shouldn't hurt the machine but it increases fuel consumption significantly. For general digging, I find running at around 4/5 of the max RPM provides the best balance of productivity and fuel efficiency. For grading, I find 1/2 throttle works best. I avoid running any slower than that because boom lift becomes too slow when doing combined functions. In special situations (such as in pond digging), I crank it up to full throttle because pond bottom moss is impossibly tough to tear.

Another reason to avoid running the engine too slow (1/3 throttle or below) is that the engine will have to put in more fuel per stroke to get the same amount of work done than at a higher RPM. The engine runs cleaner when working at 1/2 throttle or above.

Running the engine at full throttle does accelerate wear on the engine a bit, so I generally only do it when it's necessary. Short answer is that the best speed to run at for grading is half throttle and the best speed for most digging is 4/5 throttle.

At least that's what I find works best on the machines I've run. But I know a lot of guys who just crank it to max throttle all the time without thinking, even grading. I think that's unnecessary and wasteful on modern machines, wasting fuel and wearing out the engine.
 

zxa

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
49
Location
montreal surrounding
on a doosan...on standard mode, the rpm is at 85%..on power mode 100%!! but prefer by far the standard mode...so i guess all the other brand are the same....
 

YELLOMTLMILITIA

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Messages
127
Location
oklahoma
I would get the throttle fixed, IM not a Hitachi expert but hydraulics for excavators are very intelligent and your throttle dial not only controls the engine rpm but also the powershift pressure. Your engine and hydraulic pumps are tied togethor through the dial. If you turn down the dial you not only decrease engine rpm but also the maximum swashplate angle of your pumps. Running a manual throttle cable will not allow the ecm to upstroke and down stroke the pumps efficently as the machine comes under different loads and pressures, which will cause the machine hydraulics and engine to be over worked and burn excessive fuel and make excessive emmisions.
 
Last edited:

dayexco

Senior Member
Joined
May 21, 2005
Messages
1,224
Location
south dakota
i always place my throttle position in R&R mode...for "rock and roll". there are not many udders on my jobsites to milk...i need to get stuff done.
 

handtpipeline

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
214
Location
Sperry, OK
Occupation
Utility Contractor
The only time I perform any operation at less than full throttle, is loading or un-loading on the lowboy. I do that at somewhere between idle and half throttle, just for the simple reason that you don't want one track to take of before the other one in that situation. We haul the PC300 on a folding neck lowboy with outriggers, but 99 percent of the time I haul the PC200-2 on a rigid neck tandem lowboy with a dovetail. Trailer is 8' wide, and center of rails of the 200 are just a shade under 8'. So you don't have much room for error. I will say my Komatsu machines are VERY smooth loading, as are Hitachi machines that we've rented. I hate moving Hyundai hoes, I've never ran one that the tracks were smooth at any engine speed. We rented a 320 Hyundai with a hammer on it a few times, granted it was an older machine, but that was the biggest pile of junk I think I ever ran. You had to have it full throttle, as it wouldn't climb on the trailer any other way, and when you hit the travel pedals, one track was guaranteed to take off before the other one... But you never knew which one would do it.
 

Digga Dave

Active Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
38
Location
Australia
Occupation
Senior operator - Local Government
Playing around with a 325 CL in a landfill site about a month ago when the local CAT onsite mechanic rocked up to fix a engine management problem.

During the conversation on how to alter different settings via the in cab interface he said that the local CAT dealer pre-sets all excavators they supply at 85% power output as that is deemed as enough for the majority of tasks performed.

Needless to say that I now alter the output myself to match the task.
 

swampdog

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
393
Location
Canada
I would get the throttle fixed, IM not a Hitachi expert but hydraulics for excavators are very intelligent and your throttle dial not only controls the engine rpm but also the powershift pressure. Your engine and hydraulic pumps are tied togethor through the dial. If you turn down the dial you not only decrease engine rpm but also the maximum swashplate angle of your pumps. Running a manual throttle cable will not allow the ecm to upstroke and down stroke the pumps efficently as the machine comes under different loads and pressures, which will cause the machine hydraulics and engine to be over worked and burn excessive fuel and make excessive emmisions.

Getting that fixed might be nice. Does anyone have any advice on what to look for or how to go about this? At the present time, it's basically a manually controlled machine, which works OK. Operation of the different power modes obviously involve the machine's computer system, so it may be cost prohibitive to fix? Or not?

I may also get a laser tach and check the engine RPM. Without doing that, I wouldn't run it at full throttle for fear of overreving the engine and pumps. The old girl runs great and is remarkably trouble free, but I don't want too push her too hard.
 

sultan

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
298
Location
Ontario, Canada
For the guys who always run at full throttle, here are some production and fuel consumption numbers from my actual experiments.

Machine: John Deere 200LC

80% throttle on dial, Economy Mode (i.e. 75% of rated machine power):
270 cu. yds./hour stripping and stockpiling topsoil
240 cu. yds./hour digging in sand
90 cu. yds./hour pond digging
15L/hour average fuel consumption

100% throttle on dial, Economy Mode (i.e. 94% of rated power):
290 cu. yds./hour stripping and stockpiling topsoil
250 cu. yds./hour digging in sand
130 cu. yds./hour pond digging
18L/hour fuel consumption

100% throttle on dial, H/P Mode (110% of rated power, computer automatically revs engine beyond max when it detects extra power needed):
300 cu. yds./hour stripping and piling topsoil
270 cu. yds./hour digging in sand
210 cu. yds./hour pond digging
21L/hour fuel for topsoil and sand
23L/hour pond digging

So you see, for lighter work, running at 80% throttle gives you almost the same production for quite a bit less fuel. But for other tasks (such as pond digging for me), nothing short of max power could cut it. When I tried to dig pond at less than max power, the arm crowd slowed to a crawl, and I couldn't fill the bucket. But in H/P mode, for whatever reason, the arm crowd became 3x faster, and I was able to fill the bucket, hence the far better production at max power.

Swampdog, I don't know what the computer issue is on your machine, but the ECU often costs upwards of $2000 from the dealer. Try to fix it if you can. If not, at least try to check the RPMs using an adjustable strobe lamp and making a white marking on the belt. In the interim, listen to the engine sound of a properly set up excavator at full power, and set your throttle to sound a tiny bit below that.

P.S. The JD 200LC is a real dirt hog. Mine has a just rebuilt engine, new pumps, new swing motor, new track motors, so it runs like a brand new unit. It digs way faster than any CAT 320 and most other machines in its class. My 10 year old machine will probably even outdig a brand new 320D.

P.P.S. The Hitachi EX200-5 burns less fuel with its Isuzu engine, but is significantly slower than a Deere 200LC.
 

swampdog

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
393
Location
Canada
Sultan, thanks for the detailed response. Interesting and helpful information!

This Hitachi 270 has good power, even at partial throttle. It pulled about 20,000 yards of heavy blue clay out of a pond and had no problem digging that using a two yard clean up bucket. I rarely use the smaller bucket with teeth, since the machine handles the large bucket well.

I should get a tach such as the type you suggest or a laser tach. It also occurred to me that an easy way to get a rough idea of the engine RPM might be to time the swing time for the machine. This machine is supposed to do a full 360 degree turn in about 6 seconds at full throttle. At the speed I usually run it at, it takes a little longer than that.
 

Komatsu 150

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
673
Location
Northern Illinois
You can mount a universal electronic tach like an IssPro (I think that's spelled right) which will use a number of different triggering methods and can probably find some sensor type that will work. This would be independent of the computer systems so there is no chance of messing up something. I put one on a truck diesel and used their sensor that plugged into the stock tack hole on the engine. As I recall it will work with a sensor placed next to the flywheel teeth and a lot of other methods, even will use the alternator output as a last resort.
 

sultan

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
298
Location
Ontario, Canada
Sultan, thanks for the detailed response. Interesting and helpful information!

This Hitachi 270 has good power, even at partial throttle. It pulled about 20,000 yards of heavy blue clay out of a pond and had no problem digging that using a two yard clean up bucket. I rarely use the smaller bucket with teeth, since the machine handles the large bucket well.

I should get a tach such as the type you suggest or a laser tach. It also occurred to me that an easy way to get a rough idea of the engine RPM might be to time the swing time for the machine. This machine is supposed to do a full 360 degree turn in about 6 seconds at full throttle. At the speed I usually run it at, it takes a little longer than that.

Because your computer isn't working, your pump has become a fixed displacement pump that always runs at 70% of max flow. Thus, the behaviour of your machine will be very different compared to mine.

Just a bunch of points:
-Because of the pump running at 70% of max flow, the swing speed would be slower. If a 360 degree swing was supposed to take 6 seconds with a computer, it would now take about 8.5 seconds without the computer.

-The advantage of having a working computer is that you would have faster cycle times and lower fuel consumption in lighter digging

-Another advantage of having a working computer would be that you would burn much less fuel doing jobs like stump pulling, where you need high pressure and low flow. Without a computer, the pump would be wasting energy pumping a high volume through the relief valves.

-Computers are not as great as they say they are. In heavy digging like pond work, you're better off WITHOUT a working computer.

-On my excavator, the arm crowd was very slow in economy mode because the computer was reducing the swashplate angle of the pump in my excavator. This caused the pump to pump very little and the machine to dig very slowly,

-When the computer doesn't work, the pump holds its swashplate angle and makes full use of the engine torque to get all the power to the bucket no matter what. Thus, your machine is able to fill a 2 yard ditching bucket at around 1/2-2/3 throttle. If you fix your computer, you will find that it would struggle to fill a 1 yard toothed digging bucket at the same throttle level, because the computer will decide that it doesn't want to load the engine and it will reduce the pump flow to almost nothing.

-This computer phenomenon is much worse in newer excavators because of all these emissions regulations. When diesel engines are put to work, they like to make a little black smoke, and even the tiniest bit of black smoke kills environmentalists. Thus, the computers in modern excavators shy away from even going near the engine's max torque. And so, the pumps decide to play dead when you get into tough digging. It's why some people still hang on to their old Koehrings and such. In heavy digging, new fancy low emissions machines simply cannot compete with the brute force of the old fixed displacement, computer-free excavators.

P.S. The pond I was digging in had some real intense conditions. I was digging in a mix of sand and gravel, and as you may know, wet sand/gravel mix is the densest stuff you ever dig. To make matters worse, the pond had a 1/2" thick solid carpet of some impossibly tough moss that really worked my excavator to tear it.
 

John C.

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Jun 11, 2007
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The engine RPM is determined by the throttle lever on the pump. There is a minimum and maximum set of screws that limit the amount of travel the lever can make. The engine will be OK right up against the maximum screw. As far as it wearing out faster, that is determined more by load on the engine, maintenance and damage from outside factors such as oil change intervals and overheating.

Since your computer may not be letting the hydraulic system fully load the engine you shouldn't have any problems there. The oil changes and overheating are fully in your control.

You would be far better off getting a the system working properly so you could reap all the production the manufacturer has made available to you.

Good Luck!
 

John C.

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Jun 11, 2007
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The engine RPM is determined by the throttle lever on the pump. There is a minimum and maximum set of screws that limit the amount of travel the lever can make. The engine will be OK right up against the maximum screw. As far as it wearing out faster, that is determined more by load on the engine, maintenance and damage from outside factors such as oil change intervals and overheating.

Since your computer may not be letting the hydraulic system fully load the engine you shouldn't have any problems there. The oil changes and overheating are fully in your control.

You would be far better off getting a the system working properly so you could reap all the production the manufacture has made available to you.

Good Luck!
 

laketreefarm

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Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
59
Location
Frankfort KY
Occupation
Owner
Older machines with no computers

I agree with Sultan that full power is mostly not cost effective. Most of the time a computer is a detriment to getting the power you need regardless of throttle setting. I run 1/2 to 3/4 throttle on my Hanix and get the same digging power as at full throttle but the swing is slower. If I'm loading a truck I speed it up to get faster swing. I think running at full power is a waste of fuel and wears out the machine faster and is more tiring to the operator. Faster speeds often lead to more mistakes.
 

Lee-online

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2010
Messages
1,023
Location
In a van, down by the river
Playing around with a 325 CL in a landfill site about a month ago when the local CAT onsite mechanic rocked up to fix a engine management problem.

During the conversation on how to alter different settings via the in cab interface he said that the local CAT dealer pre-sets all excavators they supply at 85% power output as that is deemed as enough for the majority of tasks performed.

Needless to say that I now alter the output myself to match the task.

I know we tune up the majority of cat exc. we sell and work on, Well the 312 and bigger. We not only put the reliefs at the high side of spec but change the torque setting in speed dial 10 to 120% and then change the PRV settings to 60 low 390 high. These keep the PQ curve of the pumps higher longer. On the smaller exc, the numbers may need to be backed off if the engine lugs too much.
most customers love these settings. They never complain about too much power. These settings will keep the pump pumping longer before going into a stall condition. Because the engines try to maintain RPM regardless of load, it will now dump more fuel into it until it maxes out, then the RPMs drop and the pumps will back off to gain the RPMS back. This is where it is making max power and boost and on older engines blowing black smoke. The fuel economy goes down but most operators don't complain about this, they complain about low power. Now in light digging the pumps wont demand the power so the fuel economy will be normal. The engine only burns enough fuel to do the work demanded.

At a throttle setting less then 10 the PRV is fixed so it is a constant load regardless of demand.

I have no idea how operators operate, just what they complain about when its not working right.
 
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