Water truck: How big it too big (Fire)

[Dualie]

with a properly spec'd tandem axle the weight should be balanced so that AWD will not be needed. Honestly i would look at a good used redi-mix chassis. spec'ed for the DIRT and off road situations not to much power to brake driveline or get drivers in trouble. a good wheel base and frame length for a 4000 gallon tank. personally i think you are wasting your money with a stainless tank. you can buy 2 epoxy coated steel tanks for the price of ONE stainless tank.

 

[Birken Vogt]

It s nice to see such a engaging convo on fire apparatus on HEF.

One thing I really like about this site is the focus on business, and what money is worth spending and what is just a waste. This is something that the rural fire service can miss because of trying to keep up with the big, rich, city departments and their bells and whistles and NFPA stuff. Also, these city departments are running several fires a day where rural departments might only run a few a month, so the experience the engineers are getting tends to be lower, and confronting them with a panel covered with knobs and buttons can be overly challenging when just trying to get water on the fire. Plus, every knob or button has some system behind it to break and repair and use up limited funds.

One gadget I am partial toward, however, is the simple FoamPro injection system.

 

[245dlc]

One thing I really like about this site is the focus on business, and what money is worth spending and what is just a waste. This is something that the rural fire service can miss because of trying to keep up with the big, rich, city departments and their bells and whistles and NFPA stuff. Also, these city departments are running several fires a day where rural departments might only run a few a month, so the experience the engineers are getting tends to be lower, and confronting them with a panel covered with knobs and buttons can be overly challenging when just trying to get water on the fire. Plus, every knob or button has some system behind it to break and repair and use up limited funds.

One gadget I am partial toward, however, is the simple FoamPro injection system.

I agree especially when you consider how sparsely populated some parts of this province are, many people posting on this thread don't realize that when we talk about being remote or sparsely populated that also means a very small tax base to draw funds from, as well properly training the membership. Recently my dad's Fire Department (he's Deputy Fire Chief) responded to a fully involved house fire and since most people on that Fire Department work out of town they had to get four other Fire Departments to show up as they all had a small turnout as well. And the first two guys that showed up to call were complete rookies and didn't know how to operate the pumper, but did manage to get the lone occupant out and hooked up attack lines direct to a fire hydrant and took a defensive position against the house fire and protected exposures. Though sparks and embers started a grass fire down the street (it was windy).

 

[joispoi]

It's not an answer to your question, but if water delivery is the main issue, can your department contract with local water hauling companies to be on call? The first FD that I served at had a pretty good mutual aid program. On the bigger fires outside the hydrant district we'd call in mutual aid and/or hire a local water hauler (swimming pool tanker) to come in. It could be a win-win depending on the condition of your current tanker (can you keep using it) and the availability and willingness of your local water haulers to enter into an "on-call" contract.

 

[totalloser]

I have been trying to put in place the infrastructure to integrate a NIMS system to add private operators. We have a D8 dozer transport and two 4000 gallon tender operators willing to come when needed, but the organizational structure in the FD is not in place to mobilize this equipment.

As to the proposal, it's dead. I think it would be a fantastic tool, but those who don't are very loud.

The discussion is ending with the claim that a 27' long 8'3" wide 3800 gallon tender needs a pilot vehicle to operate on the highway. I've had enough of it. Thank you all for your thoughts and advice. I truly appreciate the input even though ultimately the project has failed.

 

[Jim D]

Also, I forgot to mention that I have seen many fire departments go to extreme lengths to avoid a third axle. This is foolish, in my opinion. Especially with the outrageous axle loadings that are now allowed on fire trucks in California. The best thing you gain with a third axle is another set of brakes, which is the most abused part of a fire truck.

I think that generally speaking, axle loads for fire trucks should be lower than commercial vehicles, since they have to perform to a higher standard. To quote a wise fire mechanic, the apparatus has 2 pedals (in an automatic) one of which must be on the floor at all times.

That's very good advice. The California rural fire district in which I reside spec'ed and purchased a single rear axle fire engine so over weight that the spring brakes would not hold it on the slightest slope or hill. The remedy was to fit the largest brake pots available to the rear axle, for only a slight improvement. That fire engine is a more dangerous vehicle to drive than any other truck that I have driven. As Birken says, the braking performance of fire vehicles should meet a higher standard; no one else would ever dare to drive an overloaded ten wheel, or six wheel, truck at Code Three (lights and siren) speeds.

 

[Jim D]

I have been trying to put in place the infrastructure to integrate a NIMS system to add private operators. We have a D8 dozer transport and two 4000 gallon tender operators willing to come when needed, but the organizational structure in the FD is not in place to mobilize this equipment.

As to the proposal, it's dead. I think it would be a fantastic tool, but those who don't are very loud.

The discussion is ending with the claim that a 27' long 8'3" wide 3800 gallon tender needs a pilot vehicle to operate on the highway. I've had enough of it. Thank you all for your thoughts and advice. I truly appreciate the input even though ultimately the project has failed.

Sorry to hear that. That's too bad. You can hope that some contractor where you are has a 3800 gal water truck, and motivates the truck to the fire, when the fire happens. That happened once, where I live, tho' the guy with the water truck never got any credit for his actions...

 

[Carolee]

I completely agree with you.

 

[245dlc]

I have been trying to put in place the infrastructure to integrate a NIMS system to add private operators. We have a D8 dozer transport and two 4000 gallon tender operators willing to come when needed, but the organizational structure in the FD is not in place to mobilize this equipment.

As to the proposal, it's dead. I think it would be a fantastic tool, but those who don't are very loud.

The discussion is ending with the claim that a 27' long 8'3" wide 3800 gallon tender needs a pilot vehicle to operate on the highway. I've had enough of it. Thank you all for your thoughts and advice. I truly appreciate the input even though ultimately the project has failed.

Yeah I'm sorry to hear that too, I have to deal with the same kind of 'numpty's' as you do I suggested a pump for our tanker to enhance it's capability a little , they shot it down but still raised money to buy a thermal imaging camera we'll hardly ever use.

 

[totalloser]

Yeah I'm sorry to hear that too, I have to deal with the same kind of 'numpty's' as you do I suggested a pump for our tanker to enhance it's capability a little , they shot it down but still raised money to buy a thermal imaging camera we'll hardly ever use.

Good lord, it's small world. I had the same struggle with management years ago. They wanted to buy a thermal imager while half the fleet was suffering from brake, tire or steering failure. I wanted to get approval to replace rusted out wheels that wouldn't hold the bead seal on a tender, and the chief wanted a $3000 doo dad to tote around in his pickup truck. Actually at the time I think it was more like $10,000. He instructed me to just keep the tires filled up, so for months I went to the station twice a week to fill the leaky tires. Surprisingly I won with the thermal imager. But I did not get funding allocated for the wheels. I finally had to use tire slime to get the bead to hold.

One of the main detractors from the project has the ear of our board president and it appears it will be handed to him. They are considering spending about twice the money (which we don't have- financing is being considered) to buy a brand new light duty commercial chassis and load it to max GVW with a 2000 gallon tank. Neither one of them knew what a DPF is. I tried.

Our chief is stand up, but we have a bunch of new board members and it takes time to get everyone on the same page. This is why they call it herding cats...

 

[245dlc]

Yeah last year on the way to a big grass fire I was driving that heap of a tanker and a gravel truck going the other way threw a big rock and broke the passenger side windshield......This was last September and it still hasn't been repaired. This past winter we had a big structural fire we responded too, and with having our rescue truck being combined with a brush fire truck and not having anything to keep the slip on tank and pump setup warm they managed to damage a valve. Well they still haven't fixed that either. After seeding is done in the next couple days and I'm done hauling fertilizer I'm going to go work in Alberta there is little to no construction work in Manitoba just some in the city.

 

[Kalashnikov]

The M920s would be good candidates. There are also M916s which don't have the tag axles but are 6x6. M915s are the same except no front drive axles. The biggest issues with theses truck is the Cat 16speed auto. They are tough to find parts for. Luckily the newer versions have an Allison 5 speed auto.

I own an M123. Maybe 20 years ago it'd be a good truck to use, today it is too difficult to drive, slow, and expensive to maintain. They didn't make very many to begin with and parts are hard to find these days. They have a 5 speed NON synchro and only go 43 TOPS. Plus they are 9.5ft wide which is overwidth.

The M911s are what replaced the M123s. They use Detroits and Allison 5 speeds so they are much easier to drive. A town near me has one actually. Again, parts avalability is still not that great. Total production is only 1200. A few were recently surplused. Top speed is about the same as the M123.
http://www.massfiretrucks.com/Upton_Tanker_1.jpg

The M920s/916/915s don't have the severe speed limitations as the 911/M123 or lack of parts. The fact that they use Cummins 400s makes parts easy to get engine wise.

Your FD doesn't get first dibs on surplus military vehicles? You referenced buy an M920 for $20k from a private dealer, probably Oshkosh?

 

[Dualie]

http://bulktransporter.com/news/ntt...D=dualie@aol.com&YM_MID=1401301&sfvc4enews=42

Just thought i would post this here, NTTC was so concerned that firefighters were dying in tender accidents that they made a safety video.