Water truck: How big it too big (Fire)

[bvfdfire]

I always thought more was better for getting water to the fire also, hence, once upon a time we had a 5000 gallon RS9 REFUELER that we repurposed into a tender and it worked very well as a nurse tender and you didn't expect it to get there quickly. 50 mph was MAX speed. Then DOT tore into us for overloading, 66,000 pounds on 3 axles. 260 inch wheelbase. We eventually retired it and downsized to a 3000 gallon tender on a 6x6 chassis. still slow at least it will do 60 downhill. We did not have the tank built by a "fire" builder per say, but they have built numerous fire tenders for area Fire departments. You should also take into account the fact that fire tenders are always loaded, so springs and brakes tend to not last as long as civilian counterparts. fire tanks have cross baffles as well as longitudinal baffles for countering the effects turns at speed, and less than full loads.

If you are looking into any kind of NFPA compliance, remember that they only count 90% of the tank water you have on board, 10% is discounted as waste, spillage and carried back. They also have started to reduce the tender size to 2000 gallons, the theory being that smaller tenders have a reduced learning curve for bringing new drivers into your ranks, smaller seems to be safer. Finally, NFPA limits tender speed to 35 mph when performing tender shuttles to contribute to driver safety!

I hate sounding like a naysayer, but having been a Volunteer firefighter for 23 years and having built several trucks, I would back off the water max and consult a chassis builder about loading. I have read far too many NIOSH Reports dealing with firefighter fatalities and the some of the contributing factors being; overloaded chassis, unsafe speeds, unsafe designs, and inexperienced drivers.

I will take whatever FLAK anyone wishes to send me! STAY SAFE!

 

[Tyler1022]

just wondering is that A.M's frame long enuff to put a 3800 gallon water tank on

 

[totalloser]

BVFDfire- Those are the same concerns we have with a big truck. We can address the learning curve to some extent by teaching on engines, and then two axle tenders (we have two) before clearing to roll something bigger. I hope not to adorn the NIOSH books. As to naysaying, I think most saying "nay" are doing so in the interest of safety.

The chassis I am eyeballing is rated by axle loading to 156,000 pounds. Tire ratings (11r24.5's) limit ACTUAL load to 84,000 pounds based on 11r24.5's being in the range of 6000 per tire. The truck itself weighs 30,000 empty and with the proposed 3800 gallon tank/pump etc. I figure to add about 38,000 pounds for a total of 68,000 pounds laden. Tires underloaded by 16,000 pounds if you count the drop axle with the limit being the tires, not the chassis and axles.

Would you consider this to be heavy towards "water max"? Or were you referring to getting a smaller truck in general?

PS Cab rear to frame end is about 16 feet. I feel a little foolish, I don't know how long the average 4000ish tank is! I'll have to look into that little detail!

 

[245dlc]

'Totalloser' I wouldn't really take the naysayers seriously whether or not somebody has 23 years of experience or not you make do with what you've got and that's all there is too it. Our Fire Department here covers a large area and some of it is pretty remote and our budget is absolutely pathetic so we've had to make do with what we can afford. Last year we had a large bush fire that was threatening a town and we couldn't get any air support from the Provincial government. Every department in our mutual aid district and a few department from outside were either at our fire or another fire southeast of us or another fire to the north of us. We had farmers and municipal equipment trying to cut fire breaks and using their own resources to help us out. And because of our ingenuity and a change in weather we barely managed to contain the fire and only suffered two structure losses, maybe if the Provincial government wasn't so stupid here we could of gotten the fire under control sooner with no structures lost.

 

[245dlc]

I just looked up the used Army truck that you posted and it's design is based on a commercial truck design by the Crane Carrier Corporation so things like chassis and engine components should be pretty easy to get a hold of. However the Cat transmission I'm not familiar with, but considering that this truck series was suppose to be commercial off the shelf those parts should be readily available. However the length of the frame will be a governing factor towards the maximum capacity of the tank I don't think a milk tanker makes a very good tanker as the chassis we have is a lighter design and I don't think it can really handle the rigors of a busy fire department and having internal baffles adds a lot to the strength of the tank of which ours I noticed is going to need some work soon.

 

[bvfdfire]

That 23 years that I mentioned before has all been volunteer and nearly all of those years having to make do with what we got, we have used a converted milk tanker, retired because of wreck. we have even had 2 tenders that were Propane delivery trucks that we merely stripped the propane pump and added a repurposed used water pump off of a farm. The point is; we built them in house and as cheaply as possible, the end result, two of them totalled as a result of load shift and overturning, luckily the drivers walked away. The 3rd one, frame finally broke and had to be scrapped. You say you are volunteer, as I still am, keep in mind that the most important asset that you can ever hope to have within your department is your volunteers! Build the SAFEST truck that you can with what you have to build with, and make sure that "everyone goes home". By the way, the tender that I have posted here was built by us in house, from the Refueler that I mentioned before for a total cost of $18,500 including IMRON paint and decals, and we had to beg for every dime of it! yes I do know how to make do with less!

 

[totalloser]

I value all opinions. It's easy to feel strongly about these sorts of things considering the consequences of less, and the consequences of more. Our department is very lucky to have a local parcel tax, in addition to county funding and community support. We can afford to have professional work here and there, and purchase something relatively fancy once in a while. I am unwilling to put anything in service without steel bi-directional baffles, but I can make those myself if need be.

I will check back with the Chief and see how likely this is to go forward, and based on that, I'll get with the tank manufacturer and see what they say about tank placement on a chassis this short. Oh and the commercial off the shelf commercial chassis and components is one of the selling points of this truck. It's almost a wish list of components with the possible exception of the drop axle.

As to the in-house build, that's impressive. You must have some DEDICATED folks!

 

[245dlc]

I value all opinions. It's easy to feel strongly about these sorts of things considering the consequences of less, and the consequences of more. Our department is very lucky to have a local parcel tax, in addition to county funding and community support. We can afford to have professional work here and there, and purchase something relatively fancy once in a while. I am unwilling to put anything in service without steel bi-directional baffles, but I can make those myself if need be.

I will check back with the Chief and see how likely this is to go forward, and based on that, I'll get with the tank manufacturer and see what they say about tank placement on a chassis this short. Oh and the commercial off the shelf commercial chassis and components is one of the selling points of this truck. It's almost a wish list of components with the possible exception of the drop axle.

As to the in-house build, that's impressive. You must have some DEDICATED folks!

Hope it all goes well buddy and if you have the chance post some pictures when you start building it.

 

[Tyler1022]

That 23 years that I mentioned before has all been volunteer and nearly all of those years having to make do with what we got, we have used a converted milk tanker, retired because of wreck. we have even had 2 tenders that were Propane delivery trucks that we merely stripped the propane pump and added a repurposed used water pump off of a farm. The point is; we built them in house and as cheaply as possible, the end result, two of them totalled as a result of load shift and overturning, luckily the drivers walked away. The 3rd one, frame finally broke and had to be scrapped. You say you are volunteer, as I still am, keep in mind that the most important asset that you can ever hope to have within your department is your volunteers! Build the SAFEST truck that you can with what you have to build with, and make sure that "everyone goes home". By the way, the tender that I have posted here was built by us in house, from the Refueler that I mentioned before for a total cost of $18,500 including IMRON paint and decals, and we had to beg for every dime of it! yes I do know how to make do with less!


View attachment 102355

that truck may have been unsafe or broke in half but you got to admitt it sure looks good. like the old dodge mediumduty trucks. If you don't mind me asking what powertrain did it have and what size tank :scool

 

[BlazinSS934]

Not knowing your response area or really dealing with water shuttle operations, I gotta give you guys an attaboy! I am in a volunteer department in Long Island ny and we get the cream of the crop. We are spoiled ask any fire apparatus salesmen. There are three types of fire trucks. Municipal trucks, Long Island fire trucks and then the rest of the country.

My district covers 7.5 sq miles , and serves 33,000 residents approximately 1700-1900 calls per year split 55/45 rescue calls vs fire.
We replace ambulances every 10-12 years engines every 12 years and we get 20 years on a ladder truck


4 firehouses
8 companies 5 engine 2 truck 1 heavy rescue
250 members


Every time I am out of Long Island I hit the local Fd to trade patches or t shirts, and also pay it forward and fill the boot or grab some food at a pasta dinner or pancake breakfast.

I would recommend the smaller tank but still run it on that military chassis you posted. It would be plenty of axle and braking for the smaller tank..the truck would be faster to fill and unload as well easier and safer to drive. Cycle times would be faster too

 

[totalloser]

Our district covers roughly 40 square miles, is split by two rivers with the three ridges connected along the coastline by Highway one. To get from one ridge to the next you have to drive down to the highway and back up the next ridge. Including all funding, we operate 6 stations (one is unofficial) on maximum of about $200K (including donations paid assignments, donated equipment etc.) Our membership varies, but right now we have dipped to 30 volunteers, and about 20 at any given time will make it to a "big" incident. Our oldest trucks are late 70's, our newest early 2000's. Most trucks in our district will serve for 30+ years and we cannot afford to buy new except perhaps a pickup truck. We currently operate a type 1, a type 2, two type 3's, two tenders, two type 6's (4x4 200 gallon chevies), two rescue/support units and three water vehicles.

Due to geography, tenders delivering the first 2000ish gallons may get there in 10 minutes from station, the next tender load will be at least 10 minutes later. After that, the bulk of our water supply will have significant latency primarily due not to onload or offload, but drive time latency. In ideal locations, a full tender cycle will take 30 minutes. Most locations it will be longer. We estimated that non-ideal locations put water delivery average with our two tenders operating in the range of 30 gpm. Again, with almost all of the latency in drive time. This is why the big tender is being considered. Right now if a tender gets stuck in the mud turning around, our water delivery to scene drops to 15gpm.

Now in REALITY we have mutual aid resources coming from all of our neighboring districts on a big one, which for the most part are similar in staffing and resources to ours. But water delivery is THE number one challenge for us with big fires. A couple years ago, I pushed very hard to get more portable pumps. Some scoffed at the low output of 50gpm@rated 100gpm flux on the small pumps. Then I drew out the numbers on tender delivery and proved that a SINGLE 1.5" portable delivers more than both tenders running. We now have 5 portables- three 1.5", two 3" and possibly will be getting two more 2" (donated) if I can get them running right. On our last structure fire, we had a pond nearby and were able to deliver 130,000 gallons to the fire and saved the adjacent structure.

I don't think the bigger (3800) tank will be that much of a game changer, but it will make a difference. Assuming a single tender is bringing 15gpm to a remote location, the larger truck would be bringing more like 25. And if stuck it can dump it's load and get UNSTUCK turning around, it means the delivery won't drop to 0. This truck I am looking at by math has less axle loading, less brake loading and less tire loading than the two trucks we are currently running, and that's with the 3800 gallon tank. It is also SUBSTANTIALLY less loading compared to a three axle running 4000 gallons- 17% less brake loading (not including engine brake) and 24% less wheel loading. If a tires blows on either of our current tenders OR a commercial 3 axle 4k, the side with the blow becomes overloaded by 2500 to 6000 pounds with the commercial 3 axle being the worst. This truck is the only of the four trucks mentioned that would remain UNDERLOADED on that side- by 2000 pounds.

This latter issue resonates particularly with me as last year I had a sidewall blow going to a structure fire with one of our tenders. :O

Also, wildland incidents in our area are dominated by privately operated 3 axle trucks with dual rear drivers, and all of the *really* scary situations I have been aware of have been with two axle trucks. Mostly from getting the frontend light and swinging sideways (single open rear diff and light front= bad) In the cases where passengers were baling out of the truck and pasty white, the 3 axle trucks were tooling right up the hill. When the frontend gets light in a tandem truck, tire scrub prevents pivot. You might spin tires, but the truck remains aimed. This is not the case with a two axle truck unless it has a rear locker engaged. The same principle that allows a one wheel peel allows the truck to spin sideways with no resistance if the frontend comes up- even for a moment.

Frame length: So the design load center is 132" from the cab but the load center to the tail is only 66". To balance the design load center the load would extend another 66" which would bring the deck length to 264" (22') It looks like the frame would need to be extended.

 

[245dlc]

The weight of the engine and the front diff. should also help keep the nose of that truck securely on the ground. I have driven many of the Freightliner FLD120 trucks and if it's one thing they are quite nose heavy, so the used army truck your looking at is very similar to that series. Plus the extra tires on the back should help keep it steady in case of a blowout unless you get one on the steering axle.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I wanted to add one more thing: if that military truck you posted has the Spicer 16 speed or anything like it, you might have trouble finding anyone to drive it efficiently. AFAIK, nobody liked those things and I think they are all but gone around these parts now. They work totally different than a Roadranger, and confusing.

 

[bvfdfire]

that truck may have been unsafe or broke in half but you got to admitt it sure looks good. like the old dodge mediumduty trucks. If you don't mind me asking what powertrain did it have and what size tank :scool

It had a 504 V-8 Cummins and the "old AT 41" Allison automatic, first thing DOD did when they got them was remove the shift linkage that tied the shift points to the throttle; took awhile and ended up running a piece of rope thru the firewall to figure that one out. We first thought it was a triple nickle, but no such luck! CPL showed 504, all in all it was dependable just slow. All we ever did to driveline was replace injectors and Air compressor. and build the shift linkage. It hauled 5000 gallons and utilized a 600 gpm Waterous midship pump.

 

[eric12]

id look into using foam such as a CAFS system instead of buying an oversized truck that will be hard to maneuver and dangerous without a competent operator. plus when you get into such a large size you need to consider NFPA standards on how long it takes to unload the water. if you invest into a pumper tanker or an engine with a CAFS system you'll use considerably less water so your gallonage is lower. yes it costs more money to pay for foam than free water but if your in an area with low supplies of water and you can use a CAFS system which uses less water then your ahead. also the knock down time is reduced greatly and the rekindle chances are reduced to basically impossible.

 

[totalloser]

We are doing both actually. Two of our trucks are pending in house retrofit to CAFS. CAFS is iffy for a water curtain though, or hydraulic ventilation. Also useless for advance on venting propane. There are still going to be things that having water will be useful for, but CAFS is an integral component in our overall plan. I'm not concerned so much about NFPA though. We take the good and leave the silly when it comes to NFPA standards. In a perfect world, I'd like a CAFS truck on every ridge. In the next few years that may be the case. The first two units will be in the range of 150-200gpm (20-25cfm) but I'm hoping to eventually have a twin screw compressor tied into a smooth bore turret on one of the trucks. That one's probably five years out though.

 

[BlazinSS934]

It s nice to see such a engaging convo on fire apparatus on HEF. Just wonder why some of you guys push the CAFS systems. I find that a proportioning system with a on board tank of class a foam get the job done. We use FoamPro on all of our engines. We carry 60 gallons of foam in the tank we also have a pickup tube that we use on big foam jobs. Our hazmat support truck had 1100 gallons of assorted foam plus all the major oil terminals have bulk foam in IBC totes. A CAFS system can't be used to supply a tower ladder. You can't pump the finished foam thru another pump on a ladder truck. The foam pro system can make 1000 GPM of foam. Basically as fast as you can supply the foam system with concentrate it will make the foam. Three years ago we had an over turn gasoline tanker with fire. It was on the border of two adjoining counties before we got there the other chief decided to call for a airport crash truck to try there luck with foam. All the did was spread the fire. Because they didn't know it was gasoline and not diesel that was burning and they also forgot that with the ethanol blended fuels you need ARAFFF alcohol resistant foam.

 

[dsmitht343]

Personally an Allison auto or a good 8ll might be the best for a tender and at least 400 hp. Cafs has its place in the fire service but I think I would take a good tender over a cafs truck. There is a lot of good ideas here and the biggest question you have is how to use some of them and wether you wanted a pumper tender or a tender.

 

[eric12]

It s nice to see such a engaging convo on fire apparatus on HEF. Just wonder why some of you guys push the CAFS systems. I find that a proportioning system with a on board tank of class a foam get the job done. We use FoamPro on all of our engines. We carry 60 gallons of foam in the tank we also have a pickup tube that we use on big foam jobs. Our hazmat support truck had 1100 gallons of assorted foam plus all the major oil terminals have bulk foam in IBC totes. A CAFS system can't be used to supply a tower ladder. You can't pump the finished foam thru another pump on a ladder truck. The foam pro system can make 1000 GPM of foam. Basically as fast as you can supply the foam system with concentrate it will make the foam. Three years ago we had an over turn gasoline tanker with fire. It was on the border of two adjoining counties before we got there the other chief decided to call for a airport crash truck to try there luck with foam. All the did was spread the fire. Because they didn't know it was gasoline and not diesel that was burning and they also forgot that with the ethanol blended fuels you need ARAFFF alcohol resistant foam.

CAFS systems arent meant for defensive attacks where youd be using a tower, its more for initial attacks because it makes for 1/3 weight hoses so its easier for low man power crews to handle, also its a 3D foam meaning itll stick to exposure buildings instead of running off like water or traditional type foams. you can look up youtube videos on it and see. it also reduces the amount of water needed to suppress fires, its not meant to replace traditional foams for vapor suppression or flammable liquid fires. if your using a tower to put water on a fire its a lost cause already because more than likely you dont have anyone in the building and you have a good water supply or your water would run out quickly using a tower with a bad water supply.

 

[245dlc]

Our brush/ rescue truck came with an integral foam cell we've got a 1" booster hose reel with 200' feet of hose and a 300 gallon tank and a front bumper mounted remote control monitor. Our Department is a poorly funded department with an operating budget of $10,000 a year.... Unbelievable I know but once in a while we're able to buy something half decent and having that 'built-in' foam cell sure is nice when we get a wind driven grass fire or we don't have any nearby water sources for drafting. I was trying to convince the members to put a pump on our used milk tanker even just a 2" gas powered pump with a booster hose reel so we could use it for some mop up work and putting out roadside grass and brush fires but they shot down my idea. And it doesn't help that our Fire Chief doesn't understand anything mechanical only hockey. Yet at the same time one of the other guys wants to put a small gas powered water pump on our gutless GMC gasoline powered pumper that has a 1000 gallon tank so it can do essentially the same thing as it's not a 'pump and roll type pumper'.