Visibility from large dozers ???

[Dozer575]

On some of the newer large dozers, the visibility is obscured the new D8's are bad. The D9 didn't look too bad. The old D8H's were real good. It looks like people that are designing them, never get on them Its a bit hard to finish blade if you can't see it.

 

[Deas Plant]

Dozer Blade Visibilty.

Hi, Dozer575.
I don't know if you're old enough to remember or even if you ever got your delicate posterior into the seat of one to check, but the closest point to the ground that you could see on the blade of a Cat D9G/H when sitting in the seat was about 10, repeat T-E-N, inches above the ground. And you COULD NOT SEE the corners of the standard semi-U blade with which most of them were equipped.

This tiny minor detail did not seem to stop an awful lot of operators on these machines doing an awful lot of VERY delicate and pretty work with them - ME INCLUDED. I have operated a number of dozers over the years where I could not see the cutting edge OR the corner tips. It didn't stop me from doing good work with them and it hasn't stopped most other OPERATORS either.

Maybe you should try doing some fiddly work with a large 4wd wheel dozer or with a 4wd compacter with a blade fitted. On most of them about all you see is the top 6-10" of the blade and NOTHING anywhere near the corner tips - -'cos those BIG front wheels get in the way.

Sure, it helps IF you can see the bottom of the back of the blade and the corner tips but I don't know of any dozer fitted with a straight or semi-U blade where you CAN see the corners of the blade. The push arms get in the way. You have a better view of the corners of the blade with an angle blade or even with some full 'U' blades. The high sprocket Cats are, by and large, better than most because you are sitting higher and the front idlers are smaller by comparison with the older oval track models.

If you think the new D8's are bad, I'd surely love to see your face if some-one put you on an old Fordson County crawler fitted with a dozer. Their tracks were close to 3/4 of the height of the engine. How much of the blade would you see then?

Here are 3 photos to help illustrate my point. In the photo of the Fordson County crawler fitted with a blade, you can use a ruler from the operator's eyeball to the corner of the blade to see the line of sight. And remember that THIS blade is an inside mounted blade. If it were an outside mounted blade, you would have push arms in the line of sight as well. Then check out the view from the seat of the Allis Chalmers HD5 dozer. How much of the cutting can you see there?

Nuff said?

 

[Dozer575]

Yeah that thing is horrible, if that is the true operator head postition.
On the D8T I sat on awhile back, the blade is set too close. If it was moved forward maybe another foot, or some of the cab/engine encloser biased away a little bit as well as the operator position moved then it would be okay. On the D9T things were a bit better. Its been along time since sitting on a D11 but I remember visability being pretty good. I was not impressed with a 355 I tried out last summer. The one I had was real good. The older D7's and D8's with old style blade bracing where the best.
The biggest problem I see with all the new dozers is the operator seat position. It is not offset enough, they are all tending to put the seat too much to the center of the tractor. Those old dozers had that seat offset for a reason. The seat postition is what kills the visablility the most.

 

[Deas Plant]

Blade too close?????????

Hi, Dozer575.
In case it hasn't dawned on you yet, the fact that the blade is closer in to the machine on the high sprocket machines is the main factor in their fore-and-aft stability and the improved balance of these machines over earlier models.It also helps to reduce front idler and front roller wear.

Maybe you'd like closed circuit TV to give you a better view of the blade?????

MiGawd, I'd hate to have seen you on one of the old Cat D8 1H's or 8R's with the hand clutch, great long steering levers coming up out of the floor, huge brake pedals AND that infamous gate change/slidebar gearshift. Boy, would you have had something to complain about then. And you still couldn't see your cutting edge if you had a straight dozer blade.

Just thank your lucky stars that you live when you do and stop trying to tell us older hands how hard it is today. In case it hasn't occurred to you, some of us are still in the game and KNOW what it is really like, then and now.

And I don't care if you don't like what I'm saying. What I am all about is getting the best information that I can out there for all to see, use and learn from. So far, your information hasn't stood up real well. Does your operating stack up any better? I suspect not.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

Deas
You are right on the money on that one. Any so called operator who can't finish grade unless he can see the corners would not have made it very long on the job in years gone by. Cutting grade with a dozer involves a sense of feel over sight. You can tell what is going on out there by the feeling in your butt.
As far as obscurred visibility, Can you remember the hood rise on a D-9H that blocked enough of the forward view you could hide a bus in front of the blade and not know it. The seating position and closer in blade helps all of that.

While I have not been around long enough to have run the cable blades or pony motors, I have long seat hour starting with a D-8H and through every version since then. K, L, N, R, RII, and T. I can and will tell you that I would take the newest of the bunch any day for comfort, vision, reliability, and most importantly, production, because after all, that is what a dozer is all about. In my opinion, the D-8T is the best balance of weight, HP, turning ability, side sloping ability, fore and aft balance, visibility, and overall production of any of them.

Having one of them sure makes you appreciate suffering through all of the old run down, worn out tractors it took to make enough to get to afford newer iron.

 

[Deas Plant]

Hello, D575.

Hello, D575.
Please read the above post by Jerry. And if you've already read it, read it again. And again. And again.

There are times when working with a grader when you can't see your blade all that well. Does that stop blade hands doing ultra-fine work? No way, Jose.

You can't see the cutting edge of a loader bucket. Does that stop good operators from doing fine work with loaders. No, it doesn't.

Now go away and think about all that you have read here and see if you can become a better operator with less complaining than you do now.

 

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Jerry.

Hi, Jerry.
Thanks for your input. This Dozer575 guy has showed up here with a new 'religion' that he is trying to peddle and I think he's getting a little frazzled 'cos people here just ain't wearing it.

Yes, I do remember the hi-rise hood on the D9H - and the D9G before that. The D9G is still probably my favourite dozer of all time. O.K., a LOT of improvements have been made to dozers in the intervening years but there was a feel and a sound to those old slow-bangers that the newer machines just don't have.

I would not like to try to take a D9L, N, R or T up an 8 foot high vertical wall of stockpiled iron ore like I did with a bob-tailed angle blade D9G one night at Mount Goldsworthy iron ore mine. The old girl, and she was 8 years old at the time, just went almost straight up with minimal scratching and never looked like rearing backwards.

I hit the wall first with the blade about a foot below right up, travelled forward about a couple of feet while lifting the blade, then backed off and let that iron ore fall. I then went in with the blade right up, put it on that slope, jacked the front of the machine well up with the blade hydraulics while still marching slowly forward until the front of the tracks were on the slope. By this time the blade was clear of the top of the bank and I left it hanging right down as a counterweight while I kept on driving up the bank. As mentioned above, she went straight up with little fuss or bother. I doubt any of the high sprocket machines would do it.

BTW, I drank in those days and I had a jug of beer riding on that one. I got my jug of beer. More importantly, I got out that area without compacting the stockpile of iron ore that I had pushed up for the 988 loader to feed into the crusher. If I had had to climb over that stockpile to get out, the 988 would have only dug it with difficulty afterwards as the iron ore went 3.4 tons to the cubic yard. THAT'S heavy.

Dozer operating, or any operating for that matter, has always been as much about what your butt tells you as it is about what your eyes tell you. It is also very largely about judgement of what you can't see as well as what you can see. Maybe Dozer575 would like closed circuit TV cameras all round the blade area so that he can SEE what he is trying to do.

To sum it up, the whole art of earthmoving is being able to set your cutting edge to take the material from where you need to take it and place it where you need to place it, in the condition it needs to be in when it gets there, with as few passes as possible.

When a body can do that, they can truly call themselves an operator. When they can do it with a wide range of machines, they can truly call themselves a Plant Operator. I suspect that we just might have one or two Plant Operators frequenting this site, maybe even three or four. LOL.

 

[wrenchbender]

:notworthy Well guys I'll be the first to admit I ain't an operator I'm more of an equipment driver. You know what I'm saying I can accomplish a 2 hour job in about a half a day (long summer day that is) I know what to do just maybe not the best and quickest way to get'er done. I guess I need more seat time I do enjoy running equipment when I finish repairing them. So my hats off to you fellers that are operators.

 

[Deas Plant]

On being an OPERATOR.

Hi, Wrenchbender.
The answer is simple, Mate. Git ON yer a** and git more practice, preferably with some wise soul around to tell you where you are going wrong and point you in the right direction.

Now is that first time yer've ever bin told ter git on yer a**???????? As opposed ter gittin offit?

 

[wrenchbender]

Thanks Deas Plant

Oh no one of my customers has been trying to get me to help him out in my slack time. He thinks maybe I could do rough clearing,dig stumps or something like that.I just don't have enough slack time and I'm a little old to be changing proffessions.Besides I can make more money operating on equipment than operating equipment. I know it's not always the money that makes the world go around but the lack of it can stop my part from going around lol. As I said earlier I do enjoy trying to run equipment of all kinds Dozers,track loaders,wheel loaders,track hoes,backhoes,scrapers or pans as we call them I've even had a little seat time in a grader or two. But never enough time in any of them to be called an operator.

 

[Dozer575]

When I been on the big ones, the hood could be restricting all the vision.
All I care about is what that edge is doing. And if you have ever run a large dozer, you know there is pretty much no feel when fine blading with it.
That is as far as loading it if at all. Now yeah in a hard push that is another thing. And yeah we all have our little secret techniques to blade when there is next to nothin to see. But no matter, I have one little trick that really helps, that seems to have been disapearing on the newer machines.
I guess if you knew about it you would understand what I am saying. And it has nothin to do with seeing the corners. Have you ever wondered why graders give such good sight to the blade? According Jerry a grader guy should beable to do his job blindfolded.
And other than not wanting to run into something, an operator has no reason to look over the hood or over the top of the blade, especially when doing dirt work. If your worried about something up front you get outa the seat and go look. Or lift that blade good and high or turn. So when I say visability I don't mean that.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

.... And if you have ever run a large dozer, you know there is pretty much no feel when fine blading with it.
........ According Jerry a grader guy should beable to do his job blindfolded.
...... So when I say visability I don't mean that.

Well D575, it sounds to me like you still don't get it.

Point one on blade feel

After push loading a few hundred thousand yards on a job years ago, I was asked by the foreman if I could grade house pads with the D-9H I was running. My comment was " I have done hundreds of them with a D-8, only thing is with a D-9 it will not take as long." I then graded an average of 20 pads per day till they were done. after seeing my work, the foreman sent home the smaller dozer that was only doing about 8 per day. I did not have any problem "feeling" the blade, and it was plenty loose at that. just load it up a little, and it steadies right out. Without a good feel, I don't think I could have got all those pads to +/- 0.10ft

Point 2 on seeing what you are doing.

A few years ago, on a night job my 14G had only one light on front and one light on the back. No moldboard lights or cab mounted lights.
I had a half mile to cover with 4" of crushed rock. After dumping the proper amount in the proper spacing on the whole road, I got on the blade and worked it by feel. When we cored it in the daylight, there were only 1 or 2 places in 1/2 mile 60 ft wide that needed corrected, so I will take your blindfold offer. I would not reccomend this as a standard practice, but only bring it up to show whats possible with the right ATTITUDE.

Point 3 on visibility

If you are now claiming you were talking about something else, let me just say not to talk about it in code, because it sure sounded like not seeing the blade was your problem.


Deas
I love your replies. You have certainly been around. Im sure we could swap dozer tales for a long time.
I havent had as good of luck climbing n the old cats like you say, but mine all had a multi shank ripper back there changing the balance and hanging up on things. Without that, I can definatly see a climb like that.

I like going up to a vertical bank, cutting in at the toe and dragging the material back under you repeatedly till you raise yourself to the top. I did it once on a 20 to 25 ft tall bank in a slope, so I could not doze any material to it to make a ramp. I kept undercutting it till I got to the top. At one point, the ledge hung over the hood of my D-8H, and loose rocks would fall on the hood and roll down at me. I would use my left hand to swat them away, as I used the right hand working the blade up and down to slowly slice more off.

Those were good times.

 

[Dozer575]

JDOFMEMI, been there done that, the house pads though it was with D8H or D375. It does take a special touch, and I understand what you are saying.
I don't know about you, there are lots of things I don't mind showing and helping others with. But how to operate a dozer is not one of them. It has taken too long to learn and do we ever stop learning? I agree we operators have special ways to let the dozer tell us things. But still it is helpful to see the results. Its been so long since I have been in the seat, it would take awhile to get into the swing of it again.

 

[farmerted44]

i have been following this thread since it was started.

not that i consider my self a cat skinner, but i do spend about 50% of my operating time on dozers now. D8T,D8N,and a brand new Deere 850.

i would have to agree w/ Deas and Jerry. We refer to it on our jobsite as having a bubble. it is the part of an operator that is in the seat of your pants.

you ever wonder why a good operator is tired as heck at the end of the day? grandad explained it to me this way... an operator is just an extension or brain of that machine. i feel that i am actually leaning on a pile of dirt and pushing it w/ my body. ya ever feel it in your butt when you have taken to big of a bite?

jerry i totally agree about the D8T, took a bit to get used too. then ya jump over to the deere and it feels like the blade is 50 feet away from you.

i guess these our not big dozers but i have run 9 and 10 s in the past. seems to not make a difference to me.

i am starting to ramble now.
everybody lets have a good and safe week!!!

 

[Jeff D.]

Deas, in the picture of the AC you posted, there are two large arms with links that drop down too the main dozer blade frame to lift/lower the blade. I noticed an old IH which had the same set-up.

Was that set-up simply to allow a shorter cylinder to be used to control the blade, or was there another reason they designed them like that?

In my mind it seems like an odd way to design it for the job it actually does, but am guessing they did it for a reason.

On both the old IH and AC I looked at I thought it made it alot more difficult to get on and off the machine, with them there.

Thanks for any insight!!

 

[Dozerboy]

I don't see how anyone can grade by sight I do everything by feel and when I don't feel it ain't right no matter what I'm operating. There have been times I couldn't find my grove and it wouldn't of mattered if I have a grade checker right there. There was no way I could efficiently cut FG, it would cut my production in half thank goodness that don’t happen often. I have spent a good bit of time in the seat of a 9H, it was a good dozer other then the 11/2' of slop in the blade. I have a lot of respect for ya old timers and wish I could learn from more of ya. It just seems like there are a bunch of pups in the seat now, and ya can't learn anything but bad habits from them. It makes my day when one of the old times shows me a better way of doing things or shares a few tips with me.

 

[Deas Plant]

On swapping dozer tales.

Hi, Jerry.
I'll make you the same offer I made Graderguy a while back, and which he took me up on. If you want to send me an e-mail, I'll send you an e-copy of a book that I am working on, albeit slowly, telling a whole lot of stories from my working life and some others that I have collected along the way. Some folks, probably all with warped senses of humour, seem to think that it is a good read. I'm not judging 'cos I might just be a tad biased.

BTW, Graderguy, glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the feedback which I only discovered earlier tonight when I checked out a PM from Steve.

 

[Deas Plant]

Those arms - and slack/wear in a blade.

Hi, JeffD.
Way back in the dim and distant past, back about the time Noah was building his shipyard, I think, hydraulics were pretty much all lower pressures and volumes (flow rates) than today and so they needed bigger bore cylinders and pistons to get the same 'grunt' out of the lower pressure and shorter strokes with longer lift arms to get the same lift speed out of the lower volumes.

Hence the BIG, FAT, SHORT cylinders and those long lift arms to get the lift speed up to where it could keep up with the tractors movements. And yes. I agree it did make them harder to get on and off, as did some of the early cable blade set-ups with lift arms attached to the track frames, a la International dozers.

Hi. Dozerboy.
One little trick that I found effective if you are able to wook from one side of a site to the other and you have a bit of slack in your blade was to tilt the corner of the blade on the side that you are working toward down a little. This helps to stop the other side digging holes in your already trimmed work when the side you are cutting on hits a hard spot. 'Course, when the side you are cutting on hits a soft spot, . . . . . . . . D**N!!!!!!!

There is another trick too, that can oftentimes be a little harder to implement, 'specially if you don't have the final say-so. It's called 'maintenance and repair'. LOL.

Hope this helps.

 

[digger242j]

It's called 'maintenance and repair'.

That's odd. The automatic censor program didn't catch that. I thought "maintenance and repair" were dirty words.

 

[Grader4me]

Hi, Jerry.
I'll make you the same offer I made Graderguy a while back, and which he took me up on. If you want to send me an e-mail, I'll send you an e-copy of a book that I am working on, albeit slowly, telling a whole lot of stories from my working life and some others that I have collected along the way. Some folks, probably all with warped senses of humour, seem to think that it is a good read. I'm not judging 'cos I might just be a tad biased.

BTW, Graderguy, glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the feedback which I only discovered earlier tonight when I checked out a PM from Steve.

Yes Deas, I did enjoy your book. Jerry, take him up on his offer...You won't reget it. Just sit back..put your feet up, read and follow the great adventures of Deas Plant:notworthy