The Great Gradall Project

[kshansen]

What a mess the electronics are.....this is THE send from the engine oil pressure sensor:

View attachment 109963

Yeah....that's what we're up against with the electronics. Oh well...challenges keep life interesting!
What a ball!

Looks like the same guy worked on that machine as worked on a John Deere grader I had the pleasure of working on a few weeks back!

I filled a couple five gallon pails with wire I removed while trying to get things to work. Used about ten feet of new wire. This was a 1970's vintage grader and it was used on road construction jobs for years. Guess you have to do what it takes to get it running out in the middle of nowhere so it can start work at day break!

 

[Delmer]

Get a second opinion on the alternator, the original might be easy to fix, and if it isn't the tach usually is just tapped into one of the three AC phases. Nothing that couldn't be reverse engineered with a bucketful of wire scraps.

 

[CraneInnovation]

Delmer: I didn't think of fixing the alternator...I suppose its possible because they aren't very complicated. We did test the unit several different ways and they all told us it was junk (spun it with compressed air with a meter on the outputs, measured battery voltage before/after engine start, and put it on a charge system tester). I have kept some of the old parts that we've replaced with the intention of repairing them to use as spares. I'll try that with the alternator. This alternator has a separate terminal for the tach send which also wasn't connected....

Got the heater core out. I hate heater cores. Every single one is a messy, sloppy, rusted disaster and this one was no different. At least now we can sand-blast the whole area.



We got the new cab support cut out and here is yours truly fitting it up:



After getting it tacked in place, Bobby tackled the welds:



Some positions were less comfortable...



But he laid down a good bead regardless.

 

[CraneInnovation]

I think it looks pretty good! Needs some more grinding, but a quick fit check with the side window suggested this will do just fine.



Slowly but surely....progress is being made. I'm starting to not recognize the smashed up mess that showed up a few months ago. Its beginning to look like a decent machine.

 

[CraneInnovation]

Looks like the same guy worked on that machine as worked on a John Deere grader I had the pleasure of working on a few weeks back!

I filled a couple five gallon pails with wire I removed while trying to get things to work. Used about ten feet of new wire. This was a 1970's vintage grader and it was used on road construction jobs for years. Guess you have to do what it takes to get it running out in the middle of nowhere so it can start work at day break!

There's a special place in hell for that guy. This kind of stuff is showing up all over this machine. It is very clear that it was maintained by most of its owners until the most recent outfit got their lunch hooks tangled up in it. The G3WD electrical troubleshooting manual doesn't even begin to address the level of dysfunction this thing has. We are slowly realizing that a complete rewiring from scratch may just be the quicker option.

 

[kshansen]

We are slowly realizing that a complete rewiring from scratch may just be the quicker option.

That is often the best route to take especially if you have a good original wiring diagram to go from and a good supply of the correct colors of wires, or make good notes for future reference.

 

[CM1995]

Neat project and I enjoy reading about your progress. I am no mechanic but by the looks of the hack job wiring, going back all new is probably the best option if you have the time and money.

 

[Delmer]

When you say you put the alternator " on a charge system tester", do you mean it was removed and spin tested with hookups? If not take a small screwdriver or pick and ground the tab inside the "U" or "D" shaped hole at 1:00 O clock in the picture, that bypasses the voltage regulator, the cheapest, most likely part to fail. Or just find a rebuilder, but you seem like the kind of guy who would rebuild a clothes pin for the experience of it.

 

[CraneInnovation]

Delmer,

My friends got a laugh out of that...as did I. It took me a bit to work up to "the plunge" of buying a project like this, but I have to say, its addictive. This is a hell of alot of fun.

The charge system test was on-board, but we did run a spin test off-board. I will definitely try what you suggested this week, that's a great idea. You're right, solid state components are often damn cheap (I fixed a 1k flatscreen TV that smoked in a friend's living room with a $6 surface-mount flyback transformer). I'll let you know how it goes!

 

[mitch504]

The alternator probably won't work from just spin testing. Even a "one wire" alternator needs voltage to it to excite the field coils, the one wire just uses a centrifugal switch to connect.

I generally find a local rebuilder is the best source for parts, if you don't just have them repair it. Vehicle wiring problems are a common cause of good alternators being replaced, as they don't work without voltage in. I think you might have mentioned a bad wire or too?

A rebuilder should test your alternator on a bench for free, or very cheap. Advance and Autozone etc. have alternator testers, too, but they are usually worse than useless on unusual ones, as they only have info on cars.

 

[CraneInnovation]

We debated whether the alternator had permanent magnets or needed an exciter supply. To double check, we watched the voltage on the battery through an off -> start -> run cycle to see if the voltage across the terminals kicked up at all when the alternator started charging. Instead we saw 12.3 -> 0 -> 12.3 during running. Revving had no effect. Based on that and the missing tach signal (with rebuilt wiring), we are assuming it is dead.

We did put a new battery in after the old one "wouldn't hold a charge". That also told us that maybe it just wasn't being charged.

Given the advice to have a "double check" test done, I'll bring it down to Autozone the next time I'm working on the machine. A second opinion never hurts!

EDIT: We did call Autozone initially and they don't recognize this model, although I assume an alternator tester should still work on it. Other than mounting/connector geometry its just a basic 12V alternator. I don't know if we have a rebuilder locally in NH, but I will check.

 

[mitch504]

Yep, it might be dead or alive, that test you did won't eliminate bad wiring. I don't think I've ever seen an alternator with bad permanent magnets.

Around here you can get them rebuilt for $50 - $150 usually.

 

[BobCatBob]

You are as crazy as I am!!! This is an awesome rebuild!!! When we are both done ( years from now).....keep track of your expenses, I'll do the same.....and he who spends more owes the other a personalized Tonka of their vehicle (Gradall for you, Galion for me)....kind of like a model when you buy a private jet (if I was rich.....I'd have one to brag).

 

[mitch504]

Yep, it might be dead or alive, that test you did won't eliminate bad wiring. I don't think I've ever seen an alternator with bad permanent magnets.

Around here you can get them rebuilt for $50 - $150 usually.

That should say I don't think I've ever seen an alternator WITH permanent magnets, not BAD permanent magnets.

 

[OldandWorn]

That should say I don't think I've ever seen an alternator WITH permanent magnets, not BAD permanent magnets.

.........

 

[mitch504]

.........

Hey OldandWorn, if you think that's bad, you should hear me talk.

 

[kshansen]

That should say I don't think I've ever seen an alternator WITH permanent magnets, not BAD permanent magnets.

Well run down to your local Harley dealer they have used them for years. Not exactly something that would work in a Gradall but the theory is there!

 

[mitch504]

Well, now I said I didn't think I'd ever seen one. I avoid Harleys like the plague, since everybody I know who has one talks about how much they have to work on them! :tong

Actually, now that you mention it, the flywheel alternator on the air compressor in my truck probably is too, but I've never actually seen that, either, SO THERE!

I really was thinking of truck and equipment, but now that you made me think, I bet lots of other stuff does use them.
Mitch

 

[OldandWorn]

Hey OldandWorn, if you think that's bad, you should hear me talk.

Just poking some fun Mitch. The original post just got a double read and an "oh well" I haven't messed with an alternator for quite some time. :beerchug

 

[CraneInnovation]

You are as crazy as I am!!! This is an awesome rebuild!!! When we are both done ( years from now).....keep track of your expenses, I'll do the same.....and he who spends more owes the other a personalized Tonka of their vehicle (Gradall for you, Galion for me)....kind of like a model when you buy a private jet (if I was rich.....I'd have one to brag).

Haha, you're on :drinkup If there is a way to get custom Tonka's of either one, I'd get both. I want a Galion too! BTW, how is it to run something like that? You must wear out your neck swivel long before you wear out the machine swivel?

Thanks for the insight on the alternators and magnets. I know alot of wind turbine/water turbine alternators have permanent magnets (that can take your hand off if you have a loose pair ), so I didn't know if vehicle alternators were the same. Makes sense that they wouldn't....the heat and vibration would take its toll on even the best permanent magnet.

I'll definitely take another look at it, if if just to have a spare. I'm planning on rebuilding several of these parts (including the destroyed charge pump shaft, my welder is chomping at the bit to TIG the teeth back on). Best case scenario....workable spare. Worst case....we had fun trying!