I recently bought a used skid steer from a dealer who reported it to have very low hours (less than 400) as shown on the hour meter. I will admit I am a not an expert on these machines and took his word for it. It was sold as is with no warranty. I bought it and put less than 50 hours on it and engine gave out. Mechanic looked and said the engine had been torn into before and that there is no way it had that low of hours judging by the wear on the engine and other parts of the machine. Do I have any recourse?
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Tampering with hour meter
- Thread starter bdog1234
- Start date
robin yates uk
Senior Member
In the UK if you buy something secondhand with no warranty, you buy as seen. Buyer beware!
robin yates uk
Senior Member
I agree with you of course but getting compensation is going to be expensive. Better to spread the word the dealer is dishonest
Nige
Senior Member
Robin's right. At least in the UK "Sold as seen" means exactly that. What's got me wondering is why when it allegeldy had such low hours they didn't give a warranty on it, that doesn't make sense to me. Even if they were not a dealer for the brand in question you'd think they would give some sort of warranty, even if it was an external one done through a third party. I take it you didn't have the machine inspected by an experienced mechanic or similar before you bought it..? A fatal mistake IMO if you don't know machinery.
You are also correct (I think, not 100% sure of US Law) that it's against the law to mis-represent something that's up for sale.
Hour meters are difficult to turn back, but extremely easy to replace and of course the replacement is set at 0, so it's the equivalent of "clocking" the meter it just costs a bit more. Of course there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation why a meter was replaced (old one broke) but even in that case it's normal to put a sticker on the meter with the hour reading of the old meter that has to be added on to whatever the new meter shows in order to get "true" hours.
Do you still have the ad, or can you get hold of a copy..? Get a report from the mechanic (with photos) showing the evidence that the engine had been torn down before and showing the levels of internal wear that conclusively (not opinions) prove how it cannot possibly have had such low hours on it when sold. Take it to the selling dealer and politely ask them what they are going to do about it. The chances are if they are a reputable company they will do their level best to turn you into a satisfied customer because their reputation depends on it.
ONLY if they deny all responsibility and wash their hands of the machine - then start telling everyone you know what a bunch of lying cheating ******s they are ..........
You are also correct (I think, not 100% sure of US Law) that it's against the law to mis-represent something that's up for sale.
Hour meters are difficult to turn back, but extremely easy to replace and of course the replacement is set at 0, so it's the equivalent of "clocking" the meter it just costs a bit more. Of course there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation why a meter was replaced (old one broke) but even in that case it's normal to put a sticker on the meter with the hour reading of the old meter that has to be added on to whatever the new meter shows in order to get "true" hours.
Do you still have the ad, or can you get hold of a copy..? Get a report from the mechanic (with photos) showing the evidence that the engine had been torn down before and showing the levels of internal wear that conclusively (not opinions) prove how it cannot possibly have had such low hours on it when sold. Take it to the selling dealer and politely ask them what they are going to do about it. The chances are if they are a reputable company they will do their level best to turn you into a satisfied customer because their reputation depends on it.
ONLY if they deny all responsibility and wash their hands of the machine - then start telling everyone you know what a bunch of lying cheating ******s they are ..........
Last edited:
Irysh1989
New Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2013
- Messages
- 3
- Location
- King of Prussia, Pa
- Occupation
- Inside Sales Rep @ Ransome CAT
My advice for the future in used purchasing would be to always have your mechanic, or an experienced mechanic look at the machine. One thing you can always do is check in with the local dealers of said equipments company. I work for a Caterpillar dealer and have helped numerous customers look up information on used machines to get the proper #'s. Quite a few times my information showed more hours on the meter and we also keep service reports. That is another great question to bring up with whomever is selling you the equipment, always ask for service reports. Those reports can show at some point the hour meter may have failed.
This is good advice and I will do it in the future. Does not help me much now though.
Irysh1989
New Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2013
- Messages
- 3
- Location
- King of Prussia, Pa
- Occupation
- Inside Sales Rep @ Ransome CAT
Your Welcome! I'd have to say I am not sure at this point what you could do. I know in my experience we have made some service deals with customers who experienced a similar issue. Agreed to meet half way on the charges for service and such. Always worth trying to work out some sort of meeting point on fixes. If they blow you off, say get lost or whatever it may be then I agree with the others in that you should spread the word to watch out for false information and lack of customer service skills.
While some dealers may have higher prices on used equipment you can be at ease knowing that we will give you all the info on the machines history and will make sure it will work for you.
While some dealers may have higher prices on used equipment you can be at ease knowing that we will give you all the info on the machines history and will make sure it will work for you.
goel
Member
To be devils advocate, it could be that the dealer does not know.
Unless the machine was always under there care and control. If someone else owned it, they could have done the hour meter swap in preparation to trade the machine in and recieve a higher trade in value.
The dealer would then just take the machine and mark it up and sell it. It could be that it was only briefly inspected and looked good. Its not like the dealer is going to pull the heads off and have a look. Not everyone brings machines in for regular service at dealers, some companies perform this themselves.
Buyer beware is always the most important thing. Have an inspection completed and a dealer you trust.
Does it suck, yes. Would I be peeved if it happened to me, yes. Is there much that you can do about it, well that all depends on the dealer.
Unless the machine was always under there care and control. If someone else owned it, they could have done the hour meter swap in preparation to trade the machine in and recieve a higher trade in value.
The dealer would then just take the machine and mark it up and sell it. It could be that it was only briefly inspected and looked good. Its not like the dealer is going to pull the heads off and have a look. Not everyone brings machines in for regular service at dealers, some companies perform this themselves.
Buyer beware is always the most important thing. Have an inspection completed and a dealer you trust.
Does it suck, yes. Would I be peeved if it happened to me, yes. Is there much that you can do about it, well that all depends on the dealer.
John C.
Senior Member
An hour meter is a device for marking time between service work and nothing more. Many people equate an hour meter to be the same thing as an odometer in a car which is covered under state laws in the US.
Warranties on used machines are nothing more than an insurance contract that links some business entity to potential risk that the machine might not perform as designed for a certain time period. Unless you signed something that states the risks covered, the time period they are covered for, the cost of the contract and the remediation when a risk occurs you don't have a warranty. Unlike new equipment, used equipment does not have to be merchantable.
Having said all that, if a sales person represented that they knew the machine had XX amount of total hours and you can document that they lied, you have at least an even chance of prevailing in a civil court. The problem normally is that salesmen are trained to talk like an airplane flying through thick clouds. You are up high and moving at a terrific speed. You just don't know where you are or where you are going.
Good Luck!
Warranties on used machines are nothing more than an insurance contract that links some business entity to potential risk that the machine might not perform as designed for a certain time period. Unless you signed something that states the risks covered, the time period they are covered for, the cost of the contract and the remediation when a risk occurs you don't have a warranty. Unlike new equipment, used equipment does not have to be merchantable.
Having said all that, if a sales person represented that they knew the machine had XX amount of total hours and you can document that they lied, you have at least an even chance of prevailing in a civil court. The problem normally is that salesmen are trained to talk like an airplane flying through thick clouds. You are up high and moving at a terrific speed. You just don't know where you are or where you are going.
Good Luck!
Spend a few bucks and call your attorney, ask a few questions and I'd venture a guess, your not going to get anywhere, most dealers will have the buyer sign a paper, stating as is with no warranty, and the add, they'll claim is what's on the hour meter, and its up to one's own translation of the written word, they do it for a living and have made sure they have a way out of any liability. Sorry to hear about your troubles, but the statement of buyer beware is really the case with used equipment, next time buy form a dealer you trust that gives a warranty of some sort, but that's only as good as the dealer that stands behind it.
the newer machine's computer also store the engine hours. We had one with a replacement hour meter. the meter had the old hours wrote on a label. When the mechanic would hook it up to his lap top, it would show about 50 hours difference.
^that
many manufacturers do not call them hour meters.
Cat calls it a "service meter" and all service intervals are in SMU's ( Service Meter Units), not hours.
If you paid ballpark of market value for the machine in the overall condition it is in, there's zero legal case.
Best to try not to sweat it too much and move on. We've all been there at one time or another.