Suggestions on rough starting? 345BL

[crane operator]

Here is the sediment. It was full before this picture. Took awhile to drain.

All that black nasty crap is straight from your fuel tank that's in the picture of your sediment bowl. You need to drain the tank, clean it out, and treat your fuel for a while. There's going to be a lot of fuel filter changes in your future.

Also, there's no gas involved here, stop saying it. Call it fuel or diesel. Gas is not a interchangeable term for diesel.

And I guess you need to do a little studying on diesel and water. If you can't tell the difference between diesel and water - see, smell, touch, and taste it. You keep tasting it, you'll learn to differentiate it by the other means.

The idea here is that the water will end up in the bottom of the tank, and the bottom of the fuel and water separator filter bowl. Fuel floats on the water. So you are opening either valve to get rid of the water, rather than making your filter absorb it all. Draining it off is cheaper than making the filter catch it. You want to stop all water from getting into the injection system. It will ruin things. You want to just drain off the water, not drain out fuel.

I think you have two problems here, the machine loses prime over time, making it have to crank a bunch to get going. And you've got a algae/ contamination problem in the tank, which will continually clog your fuel filters.

The priming issue, you could just try pumping the manual priming pump every time you go to start it, after its been sitting. Or pressurize the system to figure out where the air is getting in and fix that hose/ oring leak. Or just replace everything from tank to engine. All the lines, and o rings sealing the system.

The tank contamination is going to take removing the fuel out of the tank, cleaning the tank as best you can, and then get a fuel treatment to kill any algae growth you might have. Its hard telling from the pictures what exactly is coming out of that tank, but its not good stuff.

 

[Delmer]

No need to drain the fuel out of the water separator or filter, stop once you get clean fuel.

I wouldn't drain the tank either, just enough every day to make sure it's clean. I didn't re read the whole thread, or your other posts, but if we don't know the history of this machine, I'd keep spare filters, but run the tank down below a 1/4 tank a few times and keep an eye on the dirt. That's not a huge amount of gunk for the size of the machine for an unknown time.

 

[skyking1]

^considering he has still never sumped it, that is a sound plan ^
EDIT:
I have an oil extractor. It does a good job of sumping a tank that does not have a good sump on it.

 

[Nige]

Stop f**king about with the water separator bowl and get into that drain valve below the tank would be my advice. As mentioned above, until you do the cra@p will continue to be sucked from the tank to the filters and cost you $$$$$.

 

[crane operator]

That's not a huge amount of gunk for the size of the machine for an unknown time.

Maybe I missed something, but I thought that he bought the machine, and replaced all the filters. He just uses it on weekends. He's got less than 50 hours on that change, and he's got this in the sediment bowl.






I personally wouldn't be thrilled with that in my sediment bowl. And would be doing a clean on the tank, after first seeing what drained off as Nige mentions.

 

[Nige]

Jeremy, if you want to see what a water/diesel mixture looks like try pouring say a tablespoon of water into that bottle of diesel shown in your Post #39 photo. Tighten the cap and shake it well then leave it for a couple of minutes. You should find all the water settled out into the bottom of the bottle. The same process will happen in the sediment bowl of your water separator.

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

Ok so my apologies for saying gas instead of fuel/diesel. This is naturally just what comes to my mind when I think about my fuel tank.


I ran my tank down to one bar today which means I have about 12 gallons of diesel in there currently.

To make sure I have this down correctly.
1. I didn't have anythikg to break the clog to open the fuel tank and let it drain. I'll bring something back with me next time I go up. Then drain this until it comes out clean?
2. I checked my meter and I have 49 hours since I did all my filters. They were changed in November of last year. I'm assuming at this point you guys would recommend just changing the fuel filter every time I go up there until this sediment is gone from the sediment bowl? Or how will I know when is appropriate?
3. Should I be putting some type of additive or treatment in the fuel tank until I get this under control?

 

[James Sorochan]

My suggestion would be….. take a few gerry cans out with you and drain the last of the fuel out. I don't know if the tank has a flange on the bottom but if it does pull it and stick you arm up there with some rags and do your best to wipe it out. If no flange on bottom tape a rad onto a broom handle or stick and do it from top fill cap. This way you can take the tank out of the equation. I think many here have scratched they're
head on this problem before and spent a lot of time suffering. Unthread the drain valve and clean it out at the same time. You could also take a roll of fuel line out with you with some new clamps if you need to replace it.

 

[crane operator]

You'll need to change your fuel filters if/when they get plugged. If there's a lot of water in the fuel tank, it will saturate the pleats of the filter, which is designed to capture water. The "sediment" and trash in the bottom of the bowl, should be cleaned out when you see it, or water in the bowl.

The trash you have in the sediment bowl, is all from inside the tank. The sediment is from either rust, algae growth, or just gunk. If you clean it out of the tank, it never gets to the filter either. The bigger gunk settles to the bottom of the bowl, but the filter is catching all the smaller stuff you can't see, and the rest is in suspension as the fuel is moving.

The idea behind draining the water off the tank, is so that it never gets to the filter. The tank will naturally make water just from condensation, so you need to drain it off. The cleaning of the tank is so the sediment doesn't get to the filter and continually plug it up.

When the filter gets plugged, you will notice a decrease in performance, its not going to be able to run at full throttle, because it can't get fuel. Because the fuel can't get through the filter.

You would be better off to just clean the tank, as keep "masking" the problem by changing filters. I prefer to keep my tanks full as empty, they make less condensation, and/ or rust if they are full.

Your location says mesa, arizona, so it doesn't get real cold there. If this thing is up in altitude near flagstaff, the water in the system can actually freeze and damage things, or just plug up the lines with ice. And then it won't run.

This isn't really a big deal (in that its easy to fix), its really common. Especially in a machine that sits more than works. You could be having way worse issues than a little trash and water in the tank. The idea is to just get ahead of the problem, rather than ignore it.

 

[Nige]

I didn't have anythikg to break the clog to open the fuel tank and let it drain. I'll bring something back with me next time I go up. Then drain this until it comes out clean?

Correct. You don’t have to empty the tank completely, or anywhere near it. Just drain out any water/gunk that you find and make a habit of doing that every time you go up there while you are doing your walkaround checks before starting.

Remember to try the suggestion from way back regarding pumping the hand priming pump before you start the engine the first time and see if that improves cold starting.

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

You'll need to change your fuel filters if/when they get plugged. If there's a lot of water in the fuel tank, it will saturate the pleats of the filter, which is designed to capture water. The "sediment" and trash in the bottom of the bowl, should be cleaned out when you see it, or water in the bowl.

The trash you have in the sediment bowl, is all from inside the tank. The sediment is from either rust, algae growth, or just gunk. If you clean it out of the tank, it never gets to the filter either. The bigger gunk settles to the bottom of the bowl, but the filter is catching all the smaller stuff you can't see, and the rest is in suspension as the fuel is moving.

The idea behind draining the water off the tank, is so that it never gets to the filter. The tank will naturally make water just from condensation, so you need to drain it off. The cleaning of the tank is so the sediment doesn't get to the filter and continually plug it up.

When the filter gets plugged, you will notice a decrease in performance, its not going to be able to run at full throttle, because it can't get fuel. Because the fuel can't get through the filter.

You would be better off to just clean the tank, as keep "masking" the problem by changing filters. I prefer to keep my tanks full as empty, they make less condensation, and/ or rust if they are full.

Your location says mesa, arizona, so it doesn't get real cold there. If this thing is up in altitude near flagstaff, the water in the system can actually freeze and damage things, or just plug up the lines with ice. And then it won't run.

This isn't really a big deal (in that its easy to fix), its really common. Especially in a machine that sits more than works. You could be having way worse issues than a little trash and water in the tank. The idea is to just get ahead of the problem, rather than ignore it.

Appreciate the thorough response. I'm in Mesa but the excavator is actually up north of Payson. So it definitely gets cold and freezes up there.

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

Correct. You don’t have to empty the tank completely, or anywhere near it. Just drain out any water/gunk that you find and make a habit of doing that every time you go up there while you are doing your walkaround checks before starting.

Remember to try the suggestion from way back regarding pumping the hand priming pump before you start the engine the first time and see if that improves cold starting.

Got it. As always your suggestions/help has been instrumental in me learning how to operate and maintain my machine. Appreciate all your time.

 

[skyking1]

If it is draining back and the priming works, that is a really small thing to have to do to get going. Hopefully that works for you.
I think of all the steps a guy has to do to get a pony motor rig going, for example.

 

[Delmer]

I would not expect to have to change fuel filters with that little hours and that amount of gunk in the bowl. keep a spare, but keep it clean and safe in case you don't need it for a couple years. The manual says drain the sediment daily, and I would do that before and after every time you use it, both the tank drain and the sediment bowl. You see they are both easy to drain without tools, drain into a glass jar, or clear plastic, and you can easily see what is drained, you can even dump that into a gallon jar and reuse the fuel by siphoning off the top to avoid the water, or use it to start fires, waterproofing, etc. After several checks, you'll know what to expect, and then you can check the bowl by sight without draining, and check the tank every other time you start it, when it drains clean with zero gunk, or a small bit of gunk. I figure the pipe between the tank and the valve will hold half it's height in water without danger of getting swished out by fuel, so a teaspoon of water is not going to freak me out, that amount is sitting in that pipe, not swirling around the tank. If you get an ounce of water before starting it, then I'd drain it again after shutting it off until there's no water.

I'd use a small stick to unclog that valve. If it won't reach, remove the hose.

 

[oarwhat]

The original video shows a ton of smoke so I don't think fuel starvation is the starting problem.

 

[BC Placer gold]

At around the 45 second mark in the video the engine suddenly starts running “smoothly” with less smoke…..sticking injector?

Have seen similar behaviour in other diesels when starting in very cold weather. Often the issue only occurs on first start of the day….

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

At around the 45 second mark in the video the engine suddenly starts running “smoothly” with less smoke…..sticking injector?

Have seen similar behaviour in other diesels when starting in very cold weather. Often the issue only occurs on first start of the day….

It's definitely just the first start of the day. Every subsequent start it fires right up with no issues at all.

 

[skyking1]

At around the 45 second mark in the video the engine suddenly starts running “smoothly” with less smoke…..sticking injector?

Have seen similar behaviour in other diesels when starting in very cold weather. Often the issue only occurs on first start of the day….

Air in the fuel. If you read back in the thread aways somebody posted a common problem where they leak back when they sit a while.
EDIT: See Mccalls post #12

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

I had two of these. It's a stretch to remember everything, but, I also had to update a fuel system check valve.

Can you operate the hand primer several times, and then try starting?

If it starts better, the check valve is suspect. #11 on drawing. Part will have number stamped on hex head.

View attachment 298128View attachment 298129View attachment 298130

So I have some steps to perform to clean out the fuel tank which I'm aware of. If it doesn't improve after this the check valve seems like a pretty simple fix to try.

@heymccall this is the only image of my engine I have from this angle. Is that check valve easy to reach and replace? I just want to make sure I take the tools with me I'll need.

 

[skyking1]

pump the primer before cranking to check that issue.
As often as you use it, you may never want to put a wrench on it and just keep priming it.