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safety suction valve, arm and boom check valve, Komatsu Pc220Lc-6L

Jon_one

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According to my book you have the earlier version and the L after the 6 in the model number means the machine was built in Lexington, Kentucky. The LS valves for your machine I think are mounted in the valve block and not on the pumps. It has been a long time so I don't remember for sure. My book is the usual Komatsu with lousy illustration about where the cartridges are but I seem to remember having a bunch of trouble on the later machines where the LS cartridges were on the pump.

What I'm thinking about after you confirm all the lines are in the right places is to switch the LS cartridge valves and see if the problem switches pumps. It probably won't matter at that point if they are on the pumps or the valve blocks but I would like to know.

John

John , what is the best gauge combo to do the differential pressure test and any other tests for this machine ? i currently have a 10,000 psi , 3000 psi and 1500psi .

i am about to buy some new gauges and just want to know what is usually used .

and what length hoses would you guys use ?
 

John C.

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I have four 6,000 PSI, two 1,000 PSI and two 600 PSI gauges. My hoses are ten foot long with #4 JIC female swivel ends that I can adapt to just about anything. All the gauges are the same make to try to keep them consistent between each other. They might be off but each one will be off by the same amount and read the same. Attached are some photos of my kit.

DSC00376.jpgDSC00377.jpgDSC00378.jpgDSC00379.jpgDSC00380.jpg
 

Jon_one

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Messages
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Location
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I have four 6,000 PSI, two 1,000 PSI and two 600 PSI gauges. My hoses are ten foot long with #4 JIC female swivel ends that I can adapt to just about anything. All the gauges are the same make to try to keep them consistent between each other. They might be off but each one will be off by the same amount and read the same. Attached are some photos of my kit.

View attachment 152849View attachment 152850View attachment 152851View attachment 152852View attachment 152853


very nice . i got alot of ideas now
 

Jon_one

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Sounds to me like you have a world of issues to try to solve. I don't think there are many anywhere that could provide the kind of information you need to solve all the issues. What was changed in the pumps? Are all the valves and cartridges installed in the right places? Is there something plugging up some sensor lines? Are the electronics hooked up and set up properly. Were it my problem I would start at the pump and make sure it is working properly before anything else. You can use the speed of the tracks as a poor man's flow meter as long as the swivel and travel motors are working properly. Some kind of timer is necessary. Paint one pad on each track. Pick up that side of the machine with the implements, put the travel in high speed mode. Start the track turning to full speed and start timing the revolutions after the track has made a full revolution at speed. I used to do three turns to time. This will at least show you which pump is low and by how much. The pressures you are giving are way out of spec. Pilot pump pressure as I recall was 425 PSI. Implement pressures in normal mode were 320 KGCM2 or about 4,500 PSI and in travel or power max should be around 360 or around 5,100 PSI. The scenario you are describing tells me the pumps are not destroked at the proper pressures.

The one thing that has not been addressed in your post is the compensator valves. We didn't have much trouble with those in the 200 class of machine like the 300 class but at times they were an issue. They can be resealed but most people of that era just replaced them. If one leaks through then the problem shows up on most all the functions. You might try swapping one from each side of the valve and then check something that doesn't involve two pump function. One track at a time locked up so it goes over relief might do the trick.

I'll keep thinking a bit about this and let you know if anything else come to mind.

Good Luck!

ok so today i think i had a little breakthrough , i was relieving one of the track circuits and then relieving the boom and the arm started creeping in just a little , just barely moving .. so this has to be a compensator issue ..

i was also thinking that maybe the compensator for one of the tracks might be bad and this is why when i relieve the left track the bad compensator makes the other side build pressure or seem to / tries to move just like the arm . to confirm this i will raise the side i think has a bad compensator and relieve the other side and look for movement ?

I think that LS pressure is leaking somewhere or being by-passed to the tank ..


Maybe someone can tell me more about these compensator issues ? what to look for ? how bad will these compensators affect my machine ?



I did do some checking around today i did get the two pumps to be somewhat balanced. both pumps / tracks at max pressure currently (200kgcm) and engine speed remains at 2250 rpm for both tracks respectively . both tracks build the same pressure now ..

The arm is slow but when relieved it builds 330kg/cm2
boom is slow but builds 330kg/cm2
bucket is slow but builds 330kg/cm2
swing builds around 260-280kg/cm2

both tracks on both directions build 190-200 kg/cm2

all of these were done with the pumps split .. it swings faster with them merged because i guess more flow ..
 

John C.

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Are you measuring the track pressures with the tracks locked up. I carry a pin in the truck that will fit between a couple of sprocket teeth and lock against the machine track frame. You should get max relief at that point. The other way to lock the track was to dog a bucket tooth in between a bar on the track pad. Max travel pressure was above the implement pressures. Travel is supposed to work on the high side of the two stage relief. I seem to recall the back side pressure as being normal on the early serial number machines. A bad compensator will just not let the pump ramp up because the LS pressure is being leaked off to the tank.

It sounds to me like you can ramp up the TVCs for both pumps until your engine drops about 150 RPM with both pumps relieved on boom up with the swing brake set.
 

Jon_one

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Are you measuring the track pressures with the tracks locked up. I carry a pin in the truck that will fit between a couple of sprocket teeth and lock against the machine track frame. You should get max relief at that point. The other way to lock the track was to dog a bucket tooth in between a bar on the track pad. Max travel pressure was above the implement pressures. Travel is supposed to work on the high side of the two stage relief. I seem to recall the back side pressure as being normal on the early serial number machines. A bad compensator will just not let the pump ramp up because the LS pressure is being leaked off to the tank.

It sounds to me like you can ramp up the TVCs for both pumps until your engine drops about 150 RPM with both pumps relieved on boom up with the swing brake set.

ok i will try this ..

so one bad compensator can cause everything to slow down drastically ?

also what seals do the tvc - ls valves (the pump mounted valves) contain that go bad and cause problems ? i read this somewhere about those seals but the post did not have much detail on this .. what happens when these seals go bad ? where are they located ?

check this.jpg
 

John C.

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I've never had seals in the pump mounted valve go bad. I have had the LS relief valve cartridge go bad and dump the LS pressure.

I've been looking at the schematic concerning your question about opposite valve pressure. There are sub unload valves on each end. Have you checked differential pressure yet?
 

Jon_one

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I've never had seals in the pump mounted valve go bad. I have had the LS relief valve cartridge go bad and dump the LS pressure.

I've been looking at the schematic concerning your question about opposite valve pressure. There are sub unload valves on each end. Have you checked differential pressure yet?


no i havent . maybe this weekend i will get time to do this ..

no more info on compensation valve seal failure and also remedies ?

also with the LS relief valve catridge failure was the remedy just a seal over ? or a full replacement ?
 

John C.

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It's a cone and seat type cartridge. The cone gets a groove worn to one side and it leaks all the time. Back then it was about $80 for a new cartridge so it was generally worth the risk of it not being the problem.

The dealers mostly just replaced all the compensators if there was a problem. Usually it fixed an issue but sometimes not and a problem like what you have would inflame all the participants. Take on out when you get the chance and see what is inside. At this point you have nothing to lose.
 

Jon_one

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i will change the LS relief valve and see if i get any change ... and also check to see if i can get a set of new pressure compensators for this machine ..

what i noticed today and i think this is something that is important .. i never took my unload pressure into thought..

my unload pressure at high idle is 100kg/cm2 .. book says around 40 .. could this be an issue causing my problems ? it seems the unload valve is connected to the LS circuit ..

also noticed that any time i try to relieve or use any of the functions on the rear pump (pumps divided) the front pump seems to build a small amount of pressure .. 140-150 max .. also maybe related to this if i raise any one of the tracks off the ground and i operate the lever to test speed it is slowish . but . gets alot faster if i move the boom up or arm in lever slightly .. if the track is on the ground and i try to turn the machine with the track it does not move it, it just holds a pressure of about 200kg/cm2 on weaker track (rear pump) but if i move the arm in lever slightly the pressure goes up and down up and down and the track jerks and turns the machine whilst jerking .. the pump and engine gets loaded and unloaded really quick all in time with the jerks ..

this does not happen with the other track but this one usually builds up to 250kg/cm2 ...

i am yet to get more than 250kg/cm2 out of any of my tracks . i have tried locking the track with a metal pin and i did not get any change in relief pressure ..
 

John C.

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It kind of sounds like you have most things narrowed down to the travel circuits. I don't recall if you said anything earlier but did you check case drain on that motor? I think I would make sure the swivel and both travel motors are not bypassing before you check the differential pressures if you haven't already done that. As I recall the circuit reliefs for the travel motors are in the motors. You might try to swap a relief from one motor to the other and see if it changes sides.

I know you are thinking hard about what is going on. Try to step back for a bit. Just list all the issues you have noticed and then wait some time before you start doing the testing again. Your mind will work on the problems without you knowing about it. Things might clear up a bit when you get back on the project.
 

Jon_one

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It kind of sounds like you have most things narrowed down to the travel circuits. I don't recall if you said anything earlier but did you check case drain on that motor? I think I would make sure the swivel and both travel motors are not bypassing before you check the differential pressures if you haven't already done that. As I recall the circuit reliefs for the travel motors are in the motors. You might try to swap a relief from one motor to the other and see if it changes sides.

I know you are thinking hard about what is going on. Try to step back for a bit. Just list all the issues you have noticed and then wait some time before you start doing the testing again. Your mind will work on the problems without you knowing about it. Things might clear up a bit when you get back on the project.


Thanks alot for the advice i am going to try swapping the travel reliefs .

i dont think the case drain is high but i will check this . is there an easy way to do this ?

do my strangely high unload pressures mean anything ?
 

John C.

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To check the case drains you unhook and cap the pump side hose. Attach another hose to the motor side and run it into a bucket. Lock up the track with the pin again and try turning the track. I don't recall the amount they gave in the book but in my experience it should be less than half a gallon in a minute running into the bucket.

If the motors check out the easiest way to check the swivel is to pull it apart and inspect the seals. If the barrel comes off the center easy then it needs seals.

Don't know about the unload pressures as it isn't something I've ever checked before.
 

Jon_one

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Does anyone know what a High unload pressure mean ? Komatsu Pc220Lc-6L

Just experiencing some issues and i want to know if this can be a cause ? the book says 30-40 kg/cm2 and i am getting 100
 

Jon_one

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To check the case drains you unhook and cap the pump side hose. Attach another hose to the motor side and run it into a bucket. Lock up the track with the pin again and try turning the track. I don't recall the amount they gave in the book but in my experience it should be less than half a gallon in a minute running into the bucket.

If the motors check out the easiest way to check the swivel is to pull it apart and inspect the seals. If the barrel comes off the center easy then it needs seals.

Don't know about the unload pressures as it isn't something I've ever checked before.

Thanks alot John . i will do these tests as soon as i can .
 

Jon_one

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has anyone ever replaced swivel seals on this machine ? i am ordering a seal kit from Plant parts .

never done this before so any advice will be helpful .

does it pull straight out when hoses are removed ?

do all orings and seals go into the barrel ?

is it necessary to have the rotor or shaft chromed ?

n-030a.jpg

http://www.komatsupartsbook.com/#?k=!0!1!6384!283!295
you can see breakdown of parts and names here
 
Last edited:

John C.

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These are actually the easiest swivel to repack that I've ever dealt with. Remove the hoses, tie the case drain hose up higher that the oil in the reservoir, pull the pin on the stay rod, pull the bolts out of the top cap, remove the snap ring and pull the barrel off the center. The center stays in place and the rings go inside the barrel. You have to work a bit to get the new rings in and when you reinstall the barrel you have to make sure the eye is lined up well with the stay rod hole. A high lift jack works pretty well for pushing the barrel down over the seals. If you don't have that I've used a block of wood and a big hammer or weight to tap the barrel down into place. Never had one wear a groove in the center that would require chrome.
 
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