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Replacing Operators with Technology

Discussion in 'Integrated Machine Control' started by John C., Jun 25, 2018.

  1. MarcusZ1967

    MarcusZ1967 Active Member

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  2. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

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    Everything is on the CAN or backbone. And with satellite communication for location and programming, I don't think it's a stretch to think someone would eventually find their way into the system.
     
  3. MarcusZ1967

    MarcusZ1967 Active Member

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    And, THIS is what i find most (insert word of choice), scary, horrifying, head up my a$$ frightening?

    I'm sorry, but there are people in this world that would DO this in a heartbeat.
     
  4. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    Hacking doesn't matter to big business until it happens. It ain't happened yet that we know of. The aim is to increase profits through the reduction of human labor. Once it happens then steps will be taken to minimize it happening again, because it got in the way of profits.

    If you want an example of the effects of technology and its impact on labor look back at the implementation of containerized shipping. It was a paradigm shift in the way cargo was put on ships and trains. How many thousands of dock workers were let go?
     
  5. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    And pilfering of cargo pretty much disappeared overnight...
     
  6. Graham1

    Graham1 Senior Member

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    Makes sense to go for remote control in lots of remote mining operations. Keeps down costs and reduces risks of injuries.
    If AI can do the repetative tasks cheaper and more efficiently why would employers want operators with all the inherent risks of tiredness, lack of concentration, holidays, sickness etc? Once the program is perfected it can run 24/7 perfectly. No human operator can do that.
    Graham
     
  7. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    The cargo pilfering might have stopped but the longshoreman union just substituted that with higher wages and benefits when they shut down entire coastlines in the states.

    I think it being cheaper so far is yet to be established. I can also say nothing runs 24/7 perfectly. We have autonomous machines in the agriculture industries now. Run a search on John Deere owner repairs and check out who thinks no one else should be able to repair that brand of tractor or combine.

    I would also think that as an owner, AI would be the thing. On the other hand though, because of the liabilities of autonomous machinery, what if only the manufacturer could own the machine and you had to contract with them on a rental or lease basis. Those machines would need to be in perfect condition all the time. Can anyone ever afford that? If I were a twenty five year old operator I think I would be studying for another occupation to get into when I was thirty five to forty years old. It's coming, the only question right now is in the legalities of liability, the compiling of the actual costs and the politics of which ever government happens to be in power when the crap hits the fan.
     
  8. MarcusZ1967

    MarcusZ1967 Active Member

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    Yeah,
    Labor is a point, but the hacking is more important. IMHO. And the construction and mining is most of autonomous things that "might" be.....
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  9. MarcusZ1967

    MarcusZ1967 Active Member

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    Um, Yahoo. Amazon. Erm, dnc (l didn't say that! ) Yeah, BIG business. Always a way in.
    Because we do not have truly secure communications or we have idiots on one other or other side.
     
  10. Jeckyl1920

    Jeckyl1920 Active Member

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    The only autonomous mines that I know of have miles and miles of terrain to cover to get to them. They remove the people so the hazards are limited to fender benders. Also, hackers aren't usually interested in things that far away. It's kind of an "instant gratification" hobby. They dont like driving miles down an open face mine road just to get chased by security for an hour from the gate.

    That's why we dont see automated equipment. The more bodies, the more danger, and the more risk to hackers if you dont need someone in it to operate it.

    Now.... if you research engcon, they have a cool computer system hooked up to their control sticks for the tiltrotator. You can easily set this up with a boom pump remote controller and operate the from edge of a trench or hole for more visibility.

    They have pilot control movement capability, so you dont really need a body in the cab.
     
  11. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    Remote control has been around since the mid eighties and earlier. Autonomous equipment is already working the Ag industry and you don't have to drive miles to get to it. So far I haven't heard of hacking of farm equipment operations but like mining it appears there is a limited amount of damage that could be caused. The only large hacking links I have heard about concern power grids, point of sale systems and identification databases.

    https://www.asirobots.com/farming/

    The claim here is a labor shortage and not the cost of human labor.
     
  12. old-iron-habit

    old-iron-habit Senior Member

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    Tomorrows generation will do fine with autonomous equipment. They will be the ones programing them and when needed, printing parts to the nearest printer to the machine. Hide and watch. The older generation has always frowned on change, but the world has always survived and prospered.
     
  13. Jeckyl1920

    Jeckyl1920 Active Member

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    I see. I only have opinions on that, and being from southern California where "the Mexicans are taking all our jobs" and "the millennials are so lazy and dont want to do anything to help themselves!"

    Being that I work in heavy labor construction side by side with both, I could go on and on on this topic. It does happen to be a close partner to that.

    Anyways, imo, with heavy equipment, having people of varying mental capacity is always a dangerous situation. Even with easy to see out of and control under 10 ton machines, it's scary how dangerously people throw themselves into harms way without thinking.

    So, again imo, if an owner can automate a 50 ton machine, and all the machines around it for even $100k each, it's worth it in order to not kill anyone.

    The flip side being, people lose jobs. Regardless how you look at it, both arguements make perfect sense, owner or worker. The owner is the one with the check book and the nightmares of 100s of employees to keep safe.

    I dont think anything will be automated in city type areas any time soon. I do think having RC tech available in these areas would make heavy machinery safer as you can make machines smaller, and the operator can see around the machine.

    Anyways, my 2 cents.

    Cheers.
     
  14. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    If you're talking about $100k for automation and then set it against the cost of a new mining truck at circa $3 million a unit it's small beer. Especially when it means that in a remote mine site working 24/7 by installing the autonomous system you have immediately removed the need for a salary, transport, accomodation, meals, & benefits package for 4 operators to run each truck.

    $100k might be a bit on the low side. I know that the anti-sleep devices we installed in our haul truck fleet cost somewhere around $50k per unit. these guys are the world leaders apparently - http://www.seeingmachines.com/
     
  15. AzIron

    AzIron Well-Known Member

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    Automation is here to stay in certain applications but in my market it would never be cost effective especially on these custom homes on the side of the mountain for the time and cost it would be to program the dig you could do it 3 times and I think it will lb. Stay that way for a long time

    On another note if construction keeps going the way it is right now it would be hard to automate a lot of things after the grading because no none of the builders can organize a job right and put half the systems in and find out they are in the way of everyone else
     
  16. catwelder

    catwelder Well-Known Member

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    caterpillar has forklifts that are auto but the price of them and the problems they have caused have cost them a lot more it is breaking least twice a week and its a pointless waste of money to me but I dint sign the check
     
  17. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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  18. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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  19. old-iron-habit

    old-iron-habit Senior Member

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    At Caterpillar, Peoria, the 49 acre (under one roof) warehouse has computer generated orders filled by mini forklifts running 30 MPH between the shelf rows, picking parts from bar codes and dropping them off on the upstairs deck for shipping. They been doing it for a few years now and adding more of the warehouse to it continually. They are doubling the parts storage capacity without increasing building size. No humans tread in the automated area. It would be deadly for sure.
     
  20. catwelder

    catwelder Well-Known Member

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    they seem to think its a good idea till someone gets hit which has about happened to me about 6 times. thing was carrying a load and they told me i was out of the way it took a turn and the load bout hit me would of took out my knee if someone dint pull me back