overcharged battery in NH skid steer now NO start?

[mrbb]

OK managed to get all fuses out and just replaced with all new one's as half of them had turned a whitest color that wouldn;t allow me to check fuse itself, so just scrapped old one's
ONCE I replaced with new one ALL dash lights appeared to be working
I attempted to start machine (battery still at 13.03 volts , checked before trying to start)
machine started RIGHT up, but starter stuck for a few seconds(20-30 seconds ) then kicked off, then while idling, the display, alarm light flashing of and on, then parking brake came on and will NOT go out no matter if brake on or off!
I shut motor off
went and looked in manual for some idea's on things
went to re start machine, and now refuses to start at all
as soon as I put key to power starter TRIES to start machine, spinning slower than normal to me, but spinning starter WITHOUT me turning key to even try to start as in normal starting, it starts to try to start on its own?
parking brake light keeps flashing as does temp light
but will NOT start
I only let it try this 3 times in a 5 minute time period with a slight break in between
then I tested battery with volt meter, and its now reading 12.87 volts sitting!
so battery SHOULD be strong enough to turn faster

a little history on this machine, prior to this, I was having starter sticking issue's, starter would start machine fine, but would stick for a few seconds after starting, not disengaging like after starting!
not knowing how old starter was on machine(but machine used)
I just replaced starter, figured a new one wouldn;t hurt things minus wallet a little!
so new starter a few months ago(maybe 20 hrs on machine since new starter installed)
that didn;t solve issue, then replaced key switch thinking was retaining energy
replaced switch, still had issue
don't use machine much, and NOT the best MR fix it
A buddy that repairs Heavy equipment for a living, offered to come look at things, just never got here before this new issue started

he's been swamped with work and still hasn't gotten here, but says IS coming when he can , so I am looking for help in the mean time

any clue what could be wrong now
new fuses, battery seems to be fine, have NOT tried to swap it with a different battery YET, but did move machine a little when it did start so that can happen! now easier!

why does the starter start to spin as soon as I get power to key?
why does it stick once started, and why is it spinning slower than normal now, ?

any thoughts or suggestion would be appreciated!

 

[heymccall]

Remove trigger wire from solenoid on starter. Now retry. Still crank at key ON?

 

[mrbb]

that's what my repair guy buddy thought, the NEW starter came with a new solenoid on it and it was doing the same as the old one we replaced
so, that didn;t resolve things?
starter was ONLY sticking for a few second too then kicked out
I guess could have got a new BAD solenoid on new starter too, but that seems like a low odds deal, as did exactly the same thing after replacing

 

[mrbb]

also, I tried hooking up a second battery with jumper cables, and tried to start, but still no GO
its reading 0 .4 volts on dash display, even with second(known good) battery connected
so what would cause the low reading on dash display?

 

[mrbb]

sorry, meant 4 VOLTS on reading NOT 0.4

 

[mrbb]

what wire on it is the trigger wire?

 

[Bluox]

these are fuses on back side of seat fire wall(motor bay )
View attachment 184002
any clue what one is for what??

The trigger wire is the small wire on the starter solenoid, you may have a bad starter relay. Check wire connections ,start by cleaning battery posts and keep going till machine starts .Do you see the corrosion on these wire terminals ,this and other wire connections could be your problem .
Good luck
Bob

 

[mrbb]

all wire connections are tight and clean but those in the poic behind/above teh fuse block and they were cleaned, they got that way due to under a cover and couldn;t see them, I try an them things clean, there ALL tight too that I can get to

 

[mrbb]

OK on alternator based on wiring diagram, , I have a
D+ keyed power,
a B+,
then a stator output
and Aux B + connection
so 4 connections total
which one would be the trigger connection? so I can disconnect and see if that helps?

 

[mrbb]

OK sorry, trigger wire is on starter not alternator then!

 

[heymccall]

#8 start relay takes low current 12v from the ignition switch (when in crank) and sends higher current 12v to the small wire on the starter.
Only one stud on that relay should be hot at all times, the other 2 are crank 12v in and crank 12v out.

 

[mrbb]

thanks, but I have NO clue how to reach the wires on the starter, its behind so many things, that I cannot even see them on it , boom REALLY needs to be up to reach it
I should have raise the dam thing when I had it running. BIG mistake on my part
but with 6 days of heavy rains a coming, I was trying to keep it under a roof, and the dam thing started so easy on the ONE first try!, had HOPED It was just a bad fuse and could re start and move when weather is better

so as of now I am at a stand still I think till I get help and can figure out how to each starter or?? even the #8 relay is almost impossible for me to reach as is!
will update as I get more to relay here!

 

[Delmer]

dude, do you even read the responses? You've said a dozen times the battery is good, because it's six months old, because the voltage is high. That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works. If you want to know if the battery is good, there are lots of ways to check, the resting voltage is not one of them, and your resting voltages are BAD.

Everybody has told you to pull it out and get access. You say that's too hard, so I'll do it the impossible way, how's that working for you?

What do you propose was damaged by the battery tender? Maybe we should ask the zener diode thread what could be damaged by a battery tender on a skid steer. Was the ignition on with the battery tender? I doubt it...

 

[mrbb]

I welcome ALL feed back and I fully understand that a meter reading off a battery does NOT mean battery is good, even said so
I have a LOT of medical problems that limit what I can do, so I am TRYING to do what I can
battery was good when it ran fine about 2-3 weks started and ran as always did
Battery tender failed have went nuts, and fired itself, and it too was rather new about 8 months old and Not a Cheap piece of junk tender
so I don't think its that hard to believe that it (battery) could still be OK, if a fuse blew and it was something else other than the battery, or fuse blew and some what protected somethings?

the FACT I hooked up a second GOOD known GOOD battery to it and tried to start again, says something OTHER than battery is damaged here from being way over charged, plus doing so didn't effect the displace ratings of voltage at all)

and that is what I am sort of asking WHAT that could be
its been said the starter solenoid is possible as is a relay to it
I am NOT a skilled repair person but I AM trying, as my repair man cannot get here to help me
must be nice to have skills and health to TALK down to those that don't
I again appreciate all suggetions
so don't feel offended you just gave your's and I asked for it!

BUT if I pull the battery have it tested and it shows GOOD OR bad, its NOT changing things I have done(added second GODD battery)
that should have corrected starting if it was a voltage/battery issue, and it didn;t!
so killing myself to get this battery out isn't on the top of my list!
as for my static battery readings, NOT sure what you mean they are BAD
MY battery in my trucks and other things read about the same static,(12.9- 13.5 volts)
so I don';t think them numbers I listed on here are WRONG at all or BAD, to show me a battery issue(and yes a battery needs to be under a load to be tested)
as for what was damaged BY the tender, I DON"T Know, but when it over charged by battery to over 15+ volts I imagine a LOT of electronic's could be damaged with that HIGH of voltage pout to them, NO?? when there NOT supposed to have that muc
and the reading I got at over 15 volts was LONG after the tender was damaged and DEAD< so NO clue HOW high it might have gone?

feel free to tell me more of what IO don't know, its why I asked and I gather how most folks learn, they get info they didn't have before! many times from others that KNOW!
OH and pulling it out of building, I screwed up when it was running and regret this
but I am here all alone and don't have means to pull it out by myself
and if I do, I still do not have means to lift the boom! which seems needed to access the starter!

 

[hosspuller]

Mrbb … I don't have the years of experience that most of this forum have but, I have a bit more than you seem to.

I would respectfully suggest this machine problem is much more than your skills & physical strength are up to. There is or are several severe electrical issues as you've posted. Gaining access to find them is hard enough with a SS in a well equipped shop. Your situation sounds much worse.

Lifting the boom to me, requires either a hydraulic pressure supply or an external hoist and disconnection of the hydraulic to the cylinders. Then, it requires blocking the boom for safety.

Don't get hurt. Get help.

 

[Delmer]

I have never seen more than 13 volts on a resting battery that wasn't low on fluid like I described in my first post. 15V resting is low on fluid, a normal battery won't hold that voltage for more than a few seconds after a battery charger is removed. A battery will only take so much charge, then it starts to break down water and offgass, this concentrates the acid so you will get a higher volt reading, but is not holding more of a charge, and won't produce as much amps as a battery that's full of electrolyte/water/acid.

Using jumper cables is not the same thing as swapping in a good battery.

I don't understand what's going on with your starting issue. I can't imagine what could have been damaged to do this however, and the most logical place to start is with the battery, then connections, then random grounds in the harness. A multi meter testing the various voltages UNDER LOAD will narrow this down most likely.

I have no idea what computers would be on this machine, or how a relay could be damaged by the overcharge. If the key was off then the ONLY thing that saw that 15+V was the alternator, and it can handle it and wouldn't cause a no start that I know of.

If you suspect any of the removed fuses are bad, test them with a multimeter or test light, then you'll know if something was blown and narrow down the search.

 

[mrbb]

thanks again for the suggestion/info
and I am pretty honest with my ability's and skills, there NOT that great on repairs, and I also know NOT to do things I know are past my skills
I asked here, as I figured MAYBE someone might know what was wrong, and MAYBE I it would fall into something I could fix
I have a repairman coming sine MAY and he has NOT been able to get time to get here, he is swamped with work(as NO one else apparently works on things near me)
so, I also figured in the down time of me waiting, maybe ask here and see if again, anything I can try to correct issue's
I am limited by health issue's, which for sure ain;t helping here at all, but I am trying!

Delmer, BOTH my battery's in my Truck, ALWAYS read over 13 volts sitting static, as do the battery's in my tractors and atv's and snowmobiles and riding lawn mower, many will read 13.6+ volts and there perfectly fine
NOW< when this battery read the 15+ volts it did, I had just taken it off the broken battery tender
why it read so high, I do NOT know other than it seemed to be over charged due to tender failing
the battery shows ZERO sign of boiling over, battery is dusty and clean(as in no acid seems to have leaked out making dust seem dirtier(if that makes sense) any where if it was to have leaked out
shortly after I got that HIGH reading, it dropped down to a more normal level, of 13 volts and change and held there for days(again static meter reading NOT under a a load)
I get the removing battery from system and ruling it out too, if I could do so, I would, so I appreciate your advice here

BUT I still think if the battery was BAD, and adding a second battery of equal size even with jumper cables
it should have cause SOME sort of effect on the Machines dash voltage readings NO?
s even if mounted battery was bad, adding the second battery should have added something no?
and it didn;t, which has me confused
I am 99% sure the one 20 and 5 amp fuse's look like they were blown,, LOOKS like they are, but haven't tested, I just replaced ALL them with new one's, and got hopeful when I tried to start afterwards that it seemed OK
but will try to do so today

and NO the key was NOT ON when the tender was connected, I actually have a power disconnect in cab, that was also off, that should have stopped power going to anything IN cab at least!
was installed by previous owner, so NOT sure where it kills at, he told me the dash would have a slight drain on battery when parked for long periods so he added a power disconnect to prevent it, as he too parked machine for months at a time NOT using
machine has 1559 hours on it(or that what meter reads, I think meter doesn;t work correctly however) its 1998 yr machine , so not sure what computer from then all do either

but while I am waiting for the repair guy to get here, I am just trying to do Anything I can to help , I know fixing is most likely PAST what I can do, but I don;'t mind trying and learning what could be wrong here, plus I can maybe relay info also to my repair guy so he has a heads up before coming here too
trying to be pro active if I can be!
so again thanks for all info so far

 

[mrbb]

OK so I decided to try this, again, JUST trying what I can do here , that I figure cannot HURT anything, machine or me

I decide to disconnect the battery, just to see if maybe anything would re set if I disconnected and then re attached a few hours later(haven't hooked it back up)
and also was going to see if possible to get this battery out and put a different one in(plus take and have it tested)
there is NO way I can get the battery out, beyond what I can physically handle, that ended that idea on taking it to have tested!


so Decided to check all the old fuses, and 3 of them have no continuing my meter, NO audio alert on them, so gather they are bad
they are two 5 amp and one 20 amp fuses, , Guessing as didn;t keep track better of what was what, my fault again!
the 5 amp from each side and then one of the 20's either top or second one down< as only two 20 amp fuses!

I then checked each fuse in the fuse block and I am NOW getting four different one's that do NOT give a audio hit on my meter
on the left side, the top 20, and then the 15 and 5 amp
and then on the right side the TOP 25 doesn't alert!
SO, I went and pulled each of these, and checked JUST the fuse OUT of the block
and all test good(audio alert), but when back in fuse block do not
and this is as far as I have gotten

any new suggestions based on this info?
and this was all done with battery disconnected
the one's with the arrow pointing at them are the one's not giving an audio hit when testing(old pic, have ne fuses in since and cleaned up some, didn't take new pic)

 

[Delmer]

I've got nothing new.

1 I stand by everything I've said about your battery.

2 second most likely you have a bad connection somewhere. such as...

3 third most likely you have a bad ground, maybe a small one inside the dash

4 if you have fuses that repeatedly blow, then you have a short circuit, follow that wire, or hook up a light bulb across the fuse and wiggle the harness until the light shuts off.

5 0n a 98 machine I can't imagine there is anything that would be damaged by 20V that would affect starting. If there was, it would be related to the safeties switches, seat belt, neutral start safety etc.

You need to check the simple stuff, then find a wiring diagram and trace what needs to do what for it to start.

 

[mrbb]

OK thanks again for the info

but have to ask you this

1 battery could be bad, I get this
2 if it was a bad connection why did it just start when things got over charged>< worked prior to this
3 the dash lights all seem to be working fine, and when again disconnect switch if off(and was of when over charged) not sure how it would have gotten damaged, but anything is possible I know
4 I am NOT blowing any more fuses, ONLY 3 fuses that were blown, were fuses that were blown when things were over charged, ALL fuses in machine now are new and have NOT been blown since installing them
HOWEVER< the four I mentions are NOT reading good when IN machine, but are when OUT of machines fuse box,
I cannot get behind fuse block to see wires or wiggle them there bolted flush against the fire wall and cannot really reach well enough to remove, due to my limitations, or would try this
5 , I was told this by someone that works on this stuff, that it could have damaged a controller in the machine? said was some what common on BOBCAT skid steers of older yrs? I DO NOT Know for sure if this is correct, but I have no reason to doubt this person, as he works on equipment for a living and lives a few states away
but was told this was possible to have damage from over charging?

Doubt this changes anything on your assessment, but thought I would clear up the blown fuse thing,a s I am NOT blowing fuses at all NOW< only one's that got blown were when things got over charged!

and again thank you all for the input so far, I can understand its frustrating to you's that know this stuff to have to deal with someone like me that doesn't