Older cat track loader vs CTL

[DevinHalaburda]

I’m sure this is always a discussion but I understand everyone has a different situation. I’m currently in the landscape/excavation business. I own a Deere 30g mini ex and a Kubota bx tractor. I’ve been contemplating adding a CTL to the list but they’re super super expensive. I do all of my finish work with the bx and its attachments. Tiller, box blade, York rake etc. I own an older ford l8000 ten ton dump set up to tow 40k. I’ve been debating instead of being like everyone else and dumping 40k+ into a CTL getting something along the lines of an older cat 941. Sure it may not get used often but for a cost of 7-15k it seems like it would be worth it. The mini is awesome but the piles get huge quick. Then if I can’t get my truck next to the mini im dragging these piles. It seems to be a time killer. I’d mainly use it for grading and spreading large deals of topsoil 80 yards + expanding driveways, excavating hillsides and loading. Im also very mechanically inclined so the old ness of it doesn’t bother me. Just not sure if I should pursue this idea or throw it in the trash and keep saving for a CTL.

 

[crane operator]

Big CTL are relatively cheap to rent for the week or month. Why not just rent one for a week or two when you have a couple projects that you think you could use one for, and see how you like it. Look at it as a professional investment.

Bigger steel tracked loaders are great if you are in the woods or undeveloped areas. Not so much for a landscaper, because its a big pain to shoot one over a sidewalk, or someone's driveway.

Personally, I think a CTL and a mini seem like a "right sized" pairing. I could see a 941 and a 15 ton excavator being a more likely pairing. If that's the direction you want to go with your excavating company.

Also, there would be exactly 0 running and driving 941's in my area for $7,000. I would expect to pay somewhere between 20 and $30,000 here. But we have a lot of farmer/ part time farmers wanting one to clear fence rows and trees out.

 

[DevinHalaburda]

Big CTL are relatively cheap to rent for the week or month. Why not just rent one for a week or two when you have a couple projects that you think you could use one for, and see how you like it. Look at it as a professional investment.

Bigger steel tracked loaders are great if you are in the woods or undeveloped areas. Not so much for a landscaper, because its a big pain to shoot one over a sidewalk, or someone's driveway.

Personally, I think a CTL and a mini seem like a "right sized" pairing. I could see a 941 and a 15 ton excavator being a more likely pairing. If that's the direction you want to go with your excavating company.

Also, there would be exactly 0 running and driving 941's in my area for $7,000. I would expect to pay somewhere between 20 and $30,000 here. But we have a lot of farmer/ part time farmers wanting one to clear fence rows and trees out.

Yeah you’re onto something there. I know this will sound dumb but I hate renting. Sometimes is hard to align when it’ll be needed on the job site vs when the rental place has availability. There’s not many options in my area and the one place won’t even allow you to haul their equipment. It seems I loose a bunch of money renting. I’d rather just move the pile with my mini or bx then load with my mini vs the cost and pain in the ass with renting. I’m trying to work into excavation. I’d say it’s 50/50 excavation and landscaping. The Kubota is a great landscape tool so I hate to get rid of it. If I get a bigger tractor it’s not going to do much for me in terms of excavation then it’s too big for the landscaping. I was thinking about getting a 1840-1845c case skid steer but I’m concerned it won’t do much more work than my bx. Maybe it will, I’m not sure. I’ve never personally ran on. I rented a 323e Deere CTL a few times and it was pretty good. I just can’t justify the money for one right now. It seems I use the mini way way more than I’d use a CTL. There is almost no demand in my area for the old track loaders. We don’t have many farmers anymore. The farmers that are around have newer machines. There’s not one near me that’s closer to 20-30k unless you’re looking at the newer 943-963 machines. It appears no one has the CDL or the means to transport around. I’m not sure what route to go. Keep saving, buy a wheeled skid or a big track loader.

 

[CM1995]

What is the average size and type job do you take on?

Big difference in size and need between a track loader and a CTL. Both have their places and are jack of all trades in their respective places.

 

[DevinHalaburda]

What is the average size and type job do you take on?

Big difference in size and need between a track loader and a CTL. Both have their places and are jack of all trades in their respective places.

For example, I excavated a hillside, I ended up hauling off 200 yards of material, I will be grading an area, I’d estimate 200-300 tons of fill then 100-200 of topsoil to cover it back up. I have a job where I’ll be expanding/reclaiming a road 325’ x 5’ then spreading 50-100 ton of gravel. I have a new client who wants a hillside excavated etc. I’m only 20. I’m running with the ropes now just buying everything I’ll use. If the thing sits for months and I pay for it in full I’m not too worried.I Just worry I’ll spend the money and find it a big clunky useless thing and wish I would’ve just saved for a CTL. But it looks like it could be one hell of an investment and super useful.

 

[skyking1]

IF you want to have a functional piece then set your price point a little higher as has been pointed out above. Getting something cheap is no bargain when you need it to work and you need to fix it first.
You're only 20. Make some effort to adust "I hate to rent" attitude thing a bit. Don't just give in to that mentality, it is very limiting.
You can't own every tool that you may need, and getting a nice new rig is very handy. It is quite refreshing to have the right piece in great shape and get that job done.

 

[MG84]

I'll throw in my $0.02 since I have (somewhat) similar equipment and do similar jobs. For reference my smallest tractors are a Kubota B3200 and Kubota L2501. I also have a Case 1845c skid steer, Kubota SVL65-2 CTL and Kubota U35 mini ex (trading for U48 soon) and Case 450c wide track dozer.

I'll start by saying, once you get a skid steer, either wheeled or CTL, the BX will be parked for any dirt work. Even my B3200 vs the Case 1845C there is no comparison, the amount of dirt the skid steer will move per hour is tenfold. With a tooth bucket and decent tires, the skid steer will do some meaningful excavation work. I've dug foundations, cut in roads, built many building pads, loaded trucks, done all manner of finish grading, etc with my 1845c over the years, things you wouldn't dream of doing with a compact tractor. The only part of dirt work the compact tractors are used for is seeding. I have a york rake, soil pulverizer and 5' Brillion seeder that I use with either of the Kubota's and they are excellent for that.


I too have kicked around the idea of a larger track loader, but so far other equipment has taken precedence. For finish grading, yards, driveways etc the best combo I have found is a CTL and a six way LGP dozer paired together. The versatility and efficiency of that combo is just outstanding. I realize that's out of your budget right now, but a close second is a wheeled skid steer + dozer. You could buy a decent wheeled skid steer for $15K right now, then a year or two down the road add a small six way dozer for $25K and really have something.

 

[DevinHalaburda]

IF you want to have a functional piece then set your price point a little higher as has been pointed out above. Getting something cheap is no bargain when you need it to work and you need to fix it first.
You're only 20. Make some effort to adust "I hate to rent" attitude thing a bit. Don't just give in to that mentality, it is very limiting.
You can't own every tool that you may need, and getting a nice new rig is very handy. It is quite refreshing to have the right piece in great shape and get that job done.

That is true. The mini I have is brand new and it is very nice to not have to deal with things breaking when I’m relying on it. At my age I’m willing to admit patience is something I lack. I also have no one around me who’s in this industry and knows equipment. I need to be more patient.

 

[skyking1]

I can get this dozer delivered over the weekend for $1300 all in.
I will probably do that to get my 550' driveway cut in.



Is it nice? oh heck ya. Could I do the job with the excavator? Sure, but no way can I make as nice a subgrade hard way Jones like that.
If the pit is nice and has Saturday hours, I can probably get the 150 tons of 3"~4" base rock down with it too.
Bid jobs to allow for some nice toolage like this.

 

[crane operator]

So if you are only 20, how do you have plates, CDL and Dot numbers with insurance on your truck? My insurance company won't even contemplate a driver under 25.

 

[DevinHalaburda]

I'll throw in my $0.02 since I have (somewhat) similar equipment and do similar jobs. For reference my smallest tractors are a Kubota B3200 and Kubota L2501. I also have a Case 1845c skid steer, Kubota SVL65-2 CTL and Kubota U35 mini ex (trading for U48 soon) and Case 450c wide track dozer.

I'll start by saying, once you get a skid steer, either wheeled or CTL, the BX will be parked for any dirt work. Even my B3200 vs the Case 1845C there is no comparison, the amount of dirt the skid steer will move per hour is tenfold. With a tooth bucket and decent tires, the skid steer will do some meaningful excavation work. I've dug foundations, cut in roads, built many building pads, loaded trucks, done all manner of finish grading, etc with my 1845c over the years, things you wouldn't dream of doing with a compact tractor. The only part of dirt work the compact tractors are used for is seeding. I have a york rake, soil pulverizer and 5' Brillion seeder that I use with either of the Kubota's and they are excellent for that.


I too have kicked around the idea of a larger track loader, but so far other equipment has taken precedence. For finish grading, yards, driveways etc the best combo I have found is a CTL and a six way LGP dozer paired together. The versatility and efficiency of that combo is just outstanding. I realize that's out of your budget right now, but a close second is a wheeled skid steer + dozer. You could buy a decent wheeled skid steer for $15K right now, then a year or two down the road add a small six way dozer for $25K and really have something.

Honestly I really like this move. I have no way of loading my truck unless I have the mini. One 34” grading bucket at a time lol. I do want to get better stuff newer stuff but it’s impossible to have it all starting with nothing. I wasn’t sure if a wheeled skid would be much better than the bx but it really sounds like it is. With the CTLs it just seems like a wheeled skid isn’t even worth it. But in my scenario where cost is an issue maybe it’s the move. I also think it would be hard to grade with a track loader. The dozer would be better in my inexperienced to grade vs track loader. So the 1845 is way better? What about the 1840? I don’t see much of a difference in specs.

 

[DevinHalaburda]

So if you are only 20, how do you have plates, CDL and Dot numbers with insurance on your truck? My insurance company won't even contemplate a driver under 25.

Not sure, but I do and it’s all legal.

 

[DevinHalaburda]

I can get this dozer delivered over the weekend for $1300 all in.
I will probably do that to get my 550' driveway cut in.
View attachment 315862


Is it nice? oh heck ya. Could I do the job with the excavator? Sure, but no way can I make as nice a subgrade hard way Jones like that.
If the pit is nice and has Saturday hours, I can probably get the 150 tons of 3"~4" base rock down with it too.
Bid jobs to allow for some nice toolage like this.

Yeah… only problem is my age. I walk into a larger rental place and they basically laugh. Skid loaders and mini exs are easier to get my hands on.

 

[MG84]

Honestly I really like this move. I have no way of loading my truck unless I have the mini. One 34” grading bucket at a time lol. I do want to get better stuff newer stuff but it’s impossible to have it all starting with nothing. I wasn’t sure if a wheeled skid would be much better than the bx but it really sounds like it is. With the CTLs it just seems like a wheeled skid isn’t even worth it. But in my scenario where cost is an issue maybe it’s the move. I also think it would be hard to grade with a track loader. The dozer would be better in my inexperienced to grade vs track loader. So the 1845 is way better? What about the 1840? I don’t see much of a difference in specs.

1845c vs 1840, the 1845C has more hp, double reduction on the chain drive (more pushing power) and a self leveling bucket which very nice for loading trucks, more weight and more lift capacity, those are the big differences. There were also far more 1845C's made so they are more plentiful used. My 1845C has almost 5000hrs on it and (knock on wood) has never missed a day of work, most reliable piece of equipment I've ever owned.

Neither a dozer, track loader or wheeled skid steer is going to easy for someone inexperienced to lay a perfectly flat grade. CTL might be a little easier, but any will take seat time to master.

 

[DevinHalaburda]

1845c vs 1840, the 1845C has more hp, double reduction on the chain drive (more pushing power) and a self leveling bucket which very nice for loading trucks, more weight and more lift capacity, those are the big differences. There were also far more 1845C's made so they are more plentiful used. My 1845C has almost 5000hrs on it and (knock on wood) has never missed a day of work, most reliable piece of equipment I've ever owned.

Neither a dozer, track loader or wheeled skid steer is going to easy for someone inexperienced to lay a perfectly flat grade. CTL might be a little easier, but any will take seat time to master.

So, go for the 1845 for sure. I’m getting comfy in the mini but I’m no expert by any means. I clean everything up with my box blade now. The ctls I’ve rented seemed to be pretty easy but I wasn’t making perfectly graded concrete pads and such just general grading, lawn installs, etc.

 

[MG84]

Another benefit to the skid steer, assuming your trailer is at least 25', is you can easily haul the skid and mini ex together on the same trailer behind your dump truck. Skid steer + mini ex + dump truck on site in one trip is a money making combo.

 

[DevinHalaburda]

Another benefit to the skid steer, assuming your trailer is at least 25', is you can easily haul the skid and mini ex together on the same trailer behind your dump truck. Skid steer + mini ex + dump truck on site in one trip is a money making combo.

My current trailer is 15k gvw 12k unladen. So 30g is 7k 1845 is 6k? So 13k… that’s not too far overloaded lol. I’m not sure on an exact length but I believe it’s 20 then the dove tail. Idk if I could take the skid steer bucket off then load the mini behind it? My dump truck has fold down bed sides so I could buy the buckets in the truck bed.

 

[MG84]

I must have misread, I thought you had a 40k trailer to go behind your L8000.

 

[CM1995]

Well OP I don't like to rent either. About the only thing we rent is boom lifts when doing the odd demo job and that's only because I don't want the headaches of keeping an older one running.

Rented mini-ex's off and on for years before buying one and wish I would've bought one sooner. Bought it for $47K and the payment is $1700 a month. 1 week rental on a mini is $1800 with fees. 3 days of rental costs as much as a week so if the machine works 3 days a month it pays it's note.

For where you are at in your business I would suggest a larger 74 HP CTL in order to stay away from DEF. The 2 - 279D's I have are fantastic machines.

Track loaders are great. I have one I bought new that is as old as you are that we use primarily at our dump to push off. It's a 953C with 5K hrs on it that's in great shape.

The primary trio we use is a Next Gen 325, D3 and 279D. Those 3 cover most of what we do which is commercial sitework.

 

[Welder Dave]

A skid steer will do circles around an Ag tractor and do precision finish work because you can see what the edge of the bucket is doing. You don't get that on a loader tractor or steel track loader for that matter. For very large area's like a soccer field or something a tractor can be a good option. CTL's are nice but much higher maintenance than a wheeled skid steer. Tires also last longer and are cheaper than tracks. You get into a steel track machine and anything in your budget is going to be a money pit! Undercarriage is worn out, budget $10k min. If you're looking at skid steers don't limit yourself just to an 1845. There are some other good machines to consider. If you find something post some pics. and info on here before you buy it. There's a lot of experience on here to know what to look for and what to avoid and when a seller is trying to BS you.