Who here has to deal with MSHA? If you do, are you an equipment operator, Company safety man, supervisor, or even boss? How many of you here is MSHA directly fining, mean it's your money they are taking? What the best and worst experiences? Cmon y'all let's here some stories.
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MSHA, who deals with em?
- Thread starter Coondog
- Start date
grandpa
Senior Member
Yup, I deal with em.... have for twenty years now. Sometime's their issue's are silly, but once in a while they have a good point. Yes they fine you right out of the gate, its their way of being profitable...lol. Best experience was with a gen set, the main disconnect at the bottom had some exposed wires. They made us gaurd it,(after the fine) but we had overlooked it ourselve's. Im glad they caught it b4 someone got hurt.
excavator
Senior Member
Just this week had a customer call and say he had been fined for no travel alarm on his excavator. He was given 1 day to get it fixed or it would be red tagged. If he would be caught running it he would be fined an additional $5000.00 for every day they could prove it was used. The excavator had never been equiped with an alarm, we had no parts to do it properly so I went to a NAPA store to get a generic one and we disconnected the window washer pump and connected the alarm there. MSHA was OK with that, as long as there was a working alarm on the machine, he said most just put a toggle switch in. He also told the owner that if he could prove the machine never had an alarm, the fine could be removed.
Greg
Senior Member
Several years ago I got sited for being in a truck and not wearing seat belt. Told the guy I was off road. Didn't make any difference. Citation for $35.00. Asked what would happen if I didn't pay it. Told me a warrant would be issued and served where ever and when ever it could be done. Next time I got stopped by DOT inspector I thought HOLY ****, off we go to jail. Guess they never issued the warrant and I am still a fugitive.
John C.
Senior Member
A bunch of years ago I worked in small coal mines. Inspectors came through twice a year without warning. The radios buzzed a storm when they showed up. The crews pretty much knew what to do.
We learned to let them find cheap issues once in a while so they could tell their supervisors about it. We had one come through that had a boil growing in a sensitive place and made me take all the covers off the electrical plugins in the shop and the wash plant to make sure the ground wires were all hooked up.
I had a good relationship with a couple of the inspectors and for the most part I kind of appreciated them finding something that was actually a problem. Later on the new guys coming through just had a big attitude with a napoleon complex. We started having to fight all the time with them on fines that could run up to the ten of thousands of dollars. We started making them prove all their perceived violations with written cites from the safety manuals. If they couldn't provide the written law, we went to the administrative law judges who usually got pretty hot about bureaucrats man handling small private businesses.
I still think they are necessary as evidenced by the mining disasters of the past few years in this country. I just hate their God complexes when they show up.
We learned to let them find cheap issues once in a while so they could tell their supervisors about it. We had one come through that had a boil growing in a sensitive place and made me take all the covers off the electrical plugins in the shop and the wash plant to make sure the ground wires were all hooked up.
I had a good relationship with a couple of the inspectors and for the most part I kind of appreciated them finding something that was actually a problem. Later on the new guys coming through just had a big attitude with a napoleon complex. We started having to fight all the time with them on fines that could run up to the ten of thousands of dollars. We started making them prove all their perceived violations with written cites from the safety manuals. If they couldn't provide the written law, we went to the administrative law judges who usually got pretty hot about bureaucrats man handling small private businesses.
I still think they are necessary as evidenced by the mining disasters of the past few years in this country. I just hate their God complexes when they show up.
I am a young guy, I am THE person in charge for the safety and health of my miners, and listed so with MSHA. Meaning that if anybody is to get hurt or god forbid, get killed on the mine site I am the ultimate responsible party. I don't take this responsibility lightly and I take care of the health and safety aspect of the mine site myself,this is don through supervision and operator controls but more through education than anything.
Being in this position has landed me a somewhat good relationship with several inspectors. No I don't enjoy their company and I don't jump for joy when they arrive, but I am typically quite relaxed when one does grace me with his presence because I know that I have done my homework and hit the high and low spots pretty hard. I get cited for some things but I also have some things that get let go. Sometimes they are some pretty big things, most of which are created while the inspector is on site because he is on site, and my employees get preached at all the time and each wants to do a good job. Nervousness plays a big role in this happening. But most of the inspectors can see this and they understand and see other controls in place and quite a bit of stuff gets overlooked.
I began doing this about 5 years ago. I was not even 20 years old at the time. The inspectors from those 5 years ago were a different breed than what the mine academy is kicking out at us now. The people in the administration are taking a turn for written and broken rules only, and common sense or rationality is getting to be unheard of. The older inspectors were industry people. They worked the job, they put in the time, and they can remember the things that they used to do because there was no other way. Most of the new administration are young educated folks that would rather be lawyers it seems. There are new rules written by the minute, or if one can not be thought up, they make existing laws steeper because that rule accounted for one more injury this year than last. They obviously feel that it was not scarily enforced enough to make a difference and the consequences must get higher.
Despite what I've heard, I have asked severa inspectors all the same question. Is it true that MSHA has had to become self sufficient in order to maintain a budget? Are our tax dollars no longer being used towards funding? All have answered the same way: if that were to happen I would quit the administration in a haertbeat. Do I believe it, maybe from some, but definitely not from others. Either way, I do believe that getting some citations on every inspection pays off. I have some neighbor mines, one of which went three consecutive inspection periods with zero citations. They were given a high safety achievement award and invited to a convention to explain their success and processes. It was said that other could learn vastly from their secrets and methods to maintaining what was said to be the safest mine site in the country. Discreetly though, the district office, one up from a field office, sent an investigative team to the mine site and dug deep into the most sacred of produces and posed the largest number of tickets in the area a mine site has ever seen, through history. It pays to slip up a bit.
I don't have a problem with supervision or enforcement from a government, for the religious folks on here, god gave the government. Wright to maintain control over it's citizens. That being said, I believe we are headed for much more than that and it will not be pretty. Like I said, I am young, on top of it all, I just finished my first 5 year contract with my customer, signed another 5 years and out look is even better for long term future. My customer is probably the most solid of customers to be had, and my reserves are estimated in the 50 plus years. I will probably get to see what it is to become if our economy does just boil over and crash down on us in a way that it could never recover. I believe that OSHA could probably be viewed in the same manner although I do not have to deal with them.here's to the next 50 years I guess.
Being in this position has landed me a somewhat good relationship with several inspectors. No I don't enjoy their company and I don't jump for joy when they arrive, but I am typically quite relaxed when one does grace me with his presence because I know that I have done my homework and hit the high and low spots pretty hard. I get cited for some things but I also have some things that get let go. Sometimes they are some pretty big things, most of which are created while the inspector is on site because he is on site, and my employees get preached at all the time and each wants to do a good job. Nervousness plays a big role in this happening. But most of the inspectors can see this and they understand and see other controls in place and quite a bit of stuff gets overlooked.
I began doing this about 5 years ago. I was not even 20 years old at the time. The inspectors from those 5 years ago were a different breed than what the mine academy is kicking out at us now. The people in the administration are taking a turn for written and broken rules only, and common sense or rationality is getting to be unheard of. The older inspectors were industry people. They worked the job, they put in the time, and they can remember the things that they used to do because there was no other way. Most of the new administration are young educated folks that would rather be lawyers it seems. There are new rules written by the minute, or if one can not be thought up, they make existing laws steeper because that rule accounted for one more injury this year than last. They obviously feel that it was not scarily enforced enough to make a difference and the consequences must get higher.
Despite what I've heard, I have asked severa inspectors all the same question. Is it true that MSHA has had to become self sufficient in order to maintain a budget? Are our tax dollars no longer being used towards funding? All have answered the same way: if that were to happen I would quit the administration in a haertbeat. Do I believe it, maybe from some, but definitely not from others. Either way, I do believe that getting some citations on every inspection pays off. I have some neighbor mines, one of which went three consecutive inspection periods with zero citations. They were given a high safety achievement award and invited to a convention to explain their success and processes. It was said that other could learn vastly from their secrets and methods to maintaining what was said to be the safest mine site in the country. Discreetly though, the district office, one up from a field office, sent an investigative team to the mine site and dug deep into the most sacred of produces and posed the largest number of tickets in the area a mine site has ever seen, through history. It pays to slip up a bit.
I don't have a problem with supervision or enforcement from a government, for the religious folks on here, god gave the government. Wright to maintain control over it's citizens. That being said, I believe we are headed for much more than that and it will not be pretty. Like I said, I am young, on top of it all, I just finished my first 5 year contract with my customer, signed another 5 years and out look is even better for long term future. My customer is probably the most solid of customers to be had, and my reserves are estimated in the 50 plus years. I will probably get to see what it is to become if our economy does just boil over and crash down on us in a way that it could never recover. I believe that OSHA could probably be viewed in the same manner although I do not have to deal with them.here's to the next 50 years I guess.
I guess I did not tell a story in the last post. Deer season is a big deal around these parts. When season begins, people from the big village load up and head out in any direction, they go to first or second open gate they can find, pull off and begin their hunts. This is not good for a mine site, plus the property is 100% private. So the gate remains locked during this period. Safest thing that can be done. Anyhow, when this season begins and my gate gets the ol lockeroony, I use a combo lock and set the combo the same every year. I proceed to give the MSHA field office a call and notify them before hand with the combo included. If not it is perceived as trying to hinder an inspection and is an arrest able offense. One mid season morning I receive a call from a fit to be tied inspector about how my gate is locked and how much trouble I am in. I immediately divulge the gate combo and inspector gains access. I meet him at the mine entrance, he begins telling me all about how the FBI is on their way and I will be arrested for interfering with a federal inspection and on and on. I try to speak and get cut off, I listen, I try to explain and get cut off, I listen, I begin to explain a gain and get cut off. I finally decide this is going no where and I pick up my phone and dial the field office with a out saying a word. The inspector rambles on and on, I get an answer on the line, I ask for field office supervisor, he answers, I ask him if he remembers my gate combo, he does, I ask him if his inspector has it, he should. I hand the phone over to the inspector, who is this. He talks to his supervisor and hangs up. He promptly and shortly apoligizes for the misunderstading and then immediately begins his inspection. Talk about an extremely awkward day, but all went well from that point on. Just a little quick on the trigger early in the morning though.
surfer-joe
Senior Member
No one deals with them if they don't have to or can otherwise avoid it. Likewise, work with them as best you can. Not a good idea to try to hide stuff from them. I agree that older inspectors are better. They have the experience to judge when an outfit is trying hard to be in compliance, or not. Better to be friendly with them than standoffish or belligerent. Keep good records where needed and supply them upon demand. However, do not accept that they have the last word. If you feel strongly that they are wrong, do your research and write a letter stating your position and any rules or regulations supporting your position, or lack of them altogether, after you receive the official notice of citation. Dealing with OSHA is the same.
gravelwasher
Active Member
I have dealt MSHA three times over the last 23 years. We mostly deal with there brother OSHA. Technically were not a mine, but MSHA show up they do not care what we are. I would rather deal with OSHA any day over MSHA. It has been about 5 years for MSHA so they'll be around any day. OSHA normally cost me $5,000 and MSHA cost me around $7,500 for showing up.
Over the last 23 years they have found 3 major issues, but every year they will find a paper work issue and a few minor issues. I know a lot of other contractors have major issues with them to the point of having job sites shut down.
To me (an owner) someone getting anything more than a simple scratch from doing there job needs to sit down with one of our safety officers. I have seen our safety officers red tag 2 day old equipment for tinny sharp spots.
Currently we have 3 safety officers and currently looking to hire 1 more on a one year contract. I do my best to have a safety officer for every 30 employees or one for each work site with one in the office.
Over the last 23 years they have found 3 major issues, but every year they will find a paper work issue and a few minor issues. I know a lot of other contractors have major issues with them to the point of having job sites shut down.
To me (an owner) someone getting anything more than a simple scratch from doing there job needs to sit down with one of our safety officers. I have seen our safety officers red tag 2 day old equipment for tinny sharp spots.
Currently we have 3 safety officers and currently looking to hire 1 more on a one year contract. I do my best to have a safety officer for every 30 employees or one for each work site with one in the office.
dirtmandan
Member
got my annual inspection this week. no violations. in the seven years or so that they have been coming here I have never had a violation, except the first time. that one was free luckily. I have a wash plant they look at. they all seem to be decent guys, still hate seeing them pull up though.
in the area where i work there are alot of mines we get inspected by msha quite often, they rotate the inspectors so we cant get to know them very well, alot of paper work, equipment checks and people covering their asses, there is a j.s.a.- job safety analysis for everything we do, a jsa book for every piece of equipment, covering every job we do strripping topsoil, piling dirt, push pulling, working on a slope they all have their own numbers, we review them every day for the job were doing that day, if something goes wrong there is a paper trail where they can point their finger at whomever or whatever went wrong, now we are stretching before we start work, kinda funny, out of shape operators smoking cigs while they stretch, i just spent eight hours today learning how to be a better driver, in my personnel rig going back and forth to work, since i get paid mileage, the days of filling out a w-2 form on the hood of a pickup and getting on a scraper are long gone,the part that really sux is that im used to all this now its normal to me
Being a vendor at several mines I have occasional run ins with MSHA inspectors. I have had a few verbal warnings but have never been fined. For the most part the inspectors have been courteous and professional....there are the exceptions.