JCB 215 Series 2 Backhoe - Perkins Diesel Dies Under a Load

[Dan603]

I have a 1995 215 series 2 with about 8,200 hours. She idles well. When I use the hydraulics - dig or move, the engine dies. It will start immediately and die under a load. We can do this several times and then it just stops running and won't start. I can get it started by priming, but the cycle continues. So far I have replace the fuel filter, lift pump, drained the fuel and replace with fresh, cleaned out the sediment separator. I still have the same problem. The particle screen in the old lift pump was pretty clean. Low pressure side fuel lines look good. Any ideas where to look next?

 

[jflarin]

Hi,

When I read the title, I though of a problem I had with a MF 50 HX. But reading your post I think you already covered that. I'll still try.

The problem I had was the engine would die about 20 seconds after putting it in gear and trying to push some snow. Idling was good, even for extended period of time. The problem was not the mesh screen inside the fuel tank, but the mesh screen inside the low-pressure fuel pump. In the MF 50 HX, you have the fuel tank dripping into the low pressure pump, then through the fuel filter and bowl, then the high pressure pump, then the injector into the cylinder. There is also a pipe going from the high pressure pump (or the injector line, I can't remember) going back to the fuel tank. I can't guess what happens if this line gets plugged.

I guess what you call the lift pump is what I call the low pressure pump. You say you replaced it, but was it with a new one? I mean, if you replace the whole unit and don't check the mesh filter, you might put back another clogged low pressure pump...

Good luck,

jf

 

[Dan603]

Thank-you for your response. I replaced the pump with a factory new pump. The fuel goes from the tank (under suction) through the sedimentor (bowl), to the lift pump - low pressure pump, to the fuel filter, and then to the injector pump.

 

[jcb jeff]

Does yours have a boost valve on the fuel pump has will have a little pipe coming off of it and a little diaphragm housing with 5 sided tork bits as a anti tamper device this will be if its a turbo model only.
Also if yours is a turbo model check the turbo not seized or broken.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Fuel tank screen.??

 

[thepumpguysc]

If its a Delphi/CAV pump, theres a filter under the big inlet nut on the injection pump..
Contact for clean out instructions.. BEFORE attempting clean out..

 

[Dan603]

Thanks for the ideas. I will check the turbo, the make and model of pump, and check the fuel screen tank. Pumpguy, how can I get instructions on checking the filter in the injector pump? I see it in the parts diagram. I can say that the pump screen was clean and the fuel, although it had some sediment in what I pumped out of the tank, was clear (light yellow color in the Home Depot buckets).

I did notice that someone had used barrel connectors on the wiring to the fuel shut off solenoid. I may pull those connectors and replace with new and heat shrink tape. I can check solenoid for function.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Just remove the large inlet nut.. With a small pocket screwdriver, hold the guts down..
You might have to remove the big spring, depending on the pump model..
With a 90* pick/scribe, pull the filter out from the side of the endplate housing..
The MOST IMPORTANT THING IS> to hold the guts DOWN.. while pulling UP on the filter..
Its plastic, so just blow it off and reinstall..

 

[Trew22]

Trew22

Hi dan, i had the same trouble with my Perkins turboed JCB 1550 extend a hoe. After I spent a lot of money and suffered a great deal of frustration as did the JCB people (Frustration for them, but on my dime!!) "I" figured it out. JCB used a semi-clear rubber (silicone?) type caulk inside my machines fuel tank, and also in a lot of other places, possibly as a filler - maybe for unwelded voids or who knows what, but I ended up sucking out a 16 or 18 inch length of this stuff which had partially detached enough to get sucked into the fuel pickup inside the tank. under heavier load it plugged the line, but would relax enough to let her start and run again, all the while hiding to the common diagnostic methods. Can you view inside the fuel-tank with a very bright unobstructed view??

 

[Dan603]

I started my evening by pulling the filler to get a look inside of the tank to check for a screen. There was no screen for the fuel - just a steel line that was a few inches from the bottom of the tank. I took some photos of the inside of the tank. Trew22 - is this what you were looking for?

 

[Dan603]

Finding nothing in the tank I looked at the injector pump. It is a Lucas CAV type 688. I took photos of the plate and it looks like model 3348F212. Does this sound familiar to anyone? I have done a little searching but didn't find that model yet. I opened the fuel line nut coming from the filter to the pump but the olive must seal well because I got nothing in the way of fluid though the loose nut. I learned that the large brass connector for the fuel inlet on the pump, that holds the pump filter is a 27mm socket. I don't have one... yet, so I will have to pick up a socket tomorrow to check the filter. I put power to the shut off solenoid and hear it clicking so I think the solenoid is probably good. I primed the system and she started right away. I opened the bleeder at the bottom of the fuel filter and got what I think was a pretty good fuel flow. As soon as I put it under a load I realized that it didn't just quit, it stalled. I started it again and it stalled as I put the hydraulics to work moving the bucket. It used to run for a short time under a load but now bogs right down and stops.

As for the turbo, I noticed that I didn't hear the turbo whine after the engine stopped. I seem to remember hearing that when she was running well - or was it a bad memory on my part.

 

[Delmer]

There's a couple ways to narrow this down that I like.

The easiest once you understand what's going on, is to use the priming lever on the transfer pump to determine whether the fuel is pumping fuel, pumping air, pumped up and not pumping, or sucking a vacuum immediately after it dies. You can tell this by how the priming lever feels, I've written it out a few times and can go back and copy it here, but I don't think I explain it very well. You can figure it out just as easy by taking the lines off and using one finger to plug the outlet, then inlet, and feel the difference in the tension. Keep in mind the lever pulls the diaphragm back the same way the camshaft does to suck the fuel in, then the spring pushing the diaphragm causes the fuel pressure, unless the fuel pressure is high enough to keep the spring compressed, then the lever moves with no resistance.

The other way is to tee in an old fashioned fuel pressure/vacuum gauge wherever it's most convenient in the fuel line, if it pulls too much vacuum when it's dying then you look upstream, otherwise downstream.

If it's not blowing black smoke when it stalls, keep looking at the fuel supply until proven otherwise. Does this keep running at idle as long as you don't use it?

 

[Dan603]

Delmer: It idles just fine and keeps on idling. When I apply a load it stalls. I didn't notice any black smoke. I can hear it labor before it stalls. I will check for black smoke when I run it next.

 

[thepumpguysc]

The 3348F212 is the pump model.. Just follow my instructions to clean out the hidden filter..
BUT.. by the looks of your tank, it doesn't look like your problem.. it couldn't hurt to check tho.
The bleed screw for the low pressure side, from the tank to the injection pump is the 5/16" double screw by the name plate..
Loosen that 5/16" screw and crank the engine over until you get solid fuel and NO AIR from there and tighten.

 

[Jerryjcb]

I have a 1995 215 series 2 with about 8,200 hours. She idles well. When I use the hydraulics - dig or move, the engine dies. It will start immediately and die under a load. We can do this several times and then it just stops running and won't start. I can get it started by priming, but the cycle continues. So far I have replace the fuel filter, lift pump, drained the fuel and replace with fresh, cleaned out the sediment separator. I still have the same problem. The particle screen in the old lift pump was pretty clean. Low pressure side fuel lines look good. Any ideas where to look next?

Hi there, the CAV distributor has a very fine mesh filter inside the inlet port from the lift pump...sounds like that's pretty much blocked

 

[Jerryjcb]

Hiya, I think you're driving yourself Mad looking for all kinds of wierd and wonderful faults and I understand that like me you don't want to start playing about with the CAV pump, there's a trick that works for cleaning the inlet filter on the CAV without risking dismantling or breaking it, the tiny filter is a pig to get out and you really need to be in a nice clean lab to do it, it will look clean when you see it in the pump even if it's not. If you can get hold of a can of old fashioned carb cleaner spray with the little hose like wd40 simply spray a lot of this into the inlet port and you'll see a nice ****** of discoloured fluid run back and out of the inlet port, a little bit of bleeding air and you're good to go.
This happens an awful lot with old Perkins CAV set ups especially with agricultural diesel cos when you replace a fuel filter, nomatter how careful you are, a little bit of crud always makes its way to the CAV.
By the way, if you know how I can get some help with hydraulics on an 814 please tell me...you seem to get loads of replies and I'm bills no mates!!

 

[Dan603]

Today was encouraging. I didn't have a lot of daylight so I skipped the CAV filter and went right to the bleeder. I cracked the bleeder that Pumpguy told me about in the CAV and bled off some fluid. Then I actually removed the bleeder screw and bled off about six ounces of fuel. It was nice and clear, no bubbles and no crud. Then, just because it seemed like a good idea while I was bleeding fuel, I bled the bottom of the filter that I replaced a few days ago. I bled about six ounces of it into the clear container. When I looked at the fuel it was an off color and I saw some opaque particulate floating around inside. So, I bled it some more until it came out nice and clear again.

When I ran it this time it ran at a faster idle speed than it had been and it sounded great. It shut off again when I was moving it but it didn't stall this time. It sounded more like it actually was switched off. I added some more hydraulic fluid - it was a little low on the sight glass - I don't know if it made a difference, but when I started it it kept on running. I moved some wood chips and it powered right through it. I finally ran out of daylight.

Tomorrow I am going to change out the fuel filter again, add more fresh fuel and see how she runs. I have some test pits to dig so I will be able to put her through her paces. I am pretty optimistic.

 

[Dan603]

Pumpguy: I cleaned the filter screen on the CAV and then bled it using the bleeder you told me about. I noticed that the engine RPMs increase a little when I have the bleeder out and it decreases when I replace the screw. Is that normal or does it indicate a problem like a blockage in the high pressure side? The engine seems to run well now and I was able to run the bucket without any trouble (moved more chips). When I started digging I found that she likes the RPMs and shuts off quickly (doesn't bog down any more) when I have the hoe extended.

 

[Dan603]

Cleaned the screen. Today I replaced the shut off solenoid and wiring connector. I pulled the consoles apart and found mouse nest (trapped 13 in the cab over last winter). No damage to wires from mice.

She started up and I ran her for two hours. I scraped a rock while digging and the machine jarred hard. She started to die off and then started running again. After that I had a few spells where she would begin to die and then run. After a few hours she started running rough like starving for fuel and then would run and back to the starve cycle. Eventually she just wouldn't stay running. Once she cooled for an hour I was able to start her, move her, and put the bucket back up. Tomorrow I will pull the CAV screen again and see if I got any sediment from that jarring. She is definitely improved with the new stop solenoid and wiring. Like peeling back the layers of an onion

 

[Jerryjcb]

Hiya, know this might sound daft and I'm sure you will have already done it, but just in case.
I know you've bled air from the CAV pump, but have you bled the injectors themselves (not the small top nut that connects the returns together) but the side inlet union. By the sounds of it, you have cleared whatever the blockage was but you still have some sort of restriction......possibly air.
Once you get it running relatively smoothly, not a bad idea to pit a bottle of redex or similar diesel additive in the tank every so often to try and keep the fuel system clean, old CAV setups love it.