JCB 215 Series 2 Backhoe - Perkins Diesel Dies Under a Load

[thepumpguysc]

Was the filter dirty/clogged??

 

[Dan603]

Jerry: that is on my list for tomorrow when I can work on her. I have not bled the injectors.

Pumpguy: It had a little material in it but not much. Given what has happened since the machine jarred yesterday I may clean it again.

The adapter cable that ran from the engine harness to the solenoid harness had one wire that was pretty tarnished inside of the insulation. I stripped back as much as I could but it never got clean. I ordered a new harness adapter which I should have tomorrow. I am also chasing a ground issue. I am trying to get a service manual so that I can figure out where the ground points are to check/replace them. She ran about two hours yesterday before she started the bogging down thing. We certainly eliminated one problem. Now, to find the next one...

 

[Dan603]

I replaced the wiring harness adapter to the shut off solenoid. She ran flawlessly today. I guess time will tell if the issue is resolved. Thank-you to all who offered their advice and wisdom to me in solving this problem. I am truly grateful to you all.

 

[Delmer]

Well, IF this turns out to be the issue, we'll all have to remember this one. Makes perfect sense if you think about it, the connector holds on alright until it starts shaking.

I can't figure out how it needed to be primed to start though.

 

[Dan603]

I don't know what to tell you Delmer. I think there were a couple of things going on here. Maybe while I was priming she was cooling. Temperature seemed to play a roll here. She improved a great deal after I changed the shut off solenoid and the first cable. The only thing I did after that was the other cable which I know was compromised. The coolant temperature sender had a connector with the insulation open and the copper wire exposed... in two places. I shrink wrapped the wire itself and replaced the connector. No more flaky temperature readings. She ran about an hour today with no issues at all.

I replaced the fuel filter, lift pump, shut off solenoid and two connecting cables, drained and replaced the fuel, inspected the fuel tank, removed and thoroughly cleaned the sedimentator, replaced the fuel filter for a second time, cleaned the screen on the injector pump, bled the system numerous times, and tightened fuel line connectors.

I suspect that the 20 year old shut off solenoid may have been flaky. I think that as she ran the wire heated and the resistance of the compromised copper wire increased causing the solenoid to not stay open, causing her to suddenly shut off. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! At least until I hear a better one!

 

[6spdman]

I am having a similar issue with my new to me 212s. Disclosure...I am new to diesels. Originally my machine started hard, sometimes killing the new battery to the point I would have to jump it. When hooked to my truck it would fire right up. Once running it performed well for days at a time (in warmer weather if that matters) but still started hard. Lately it will crank and crank, sputter & die, sputter, run a few seconds and die, then finally start and idle and then run well for a while (30-40 mins today) Once it dies it cranks and stalls but would eventually start.

Today I changed the fuel filter, cleaned the lift pump screen(and changed the gasket under the screw on top of it), removed and cleaned the sediment bowl (lots of rust) and removed and cleaned the filter under the fuel inlet on the IP (there was some waxy gunk on it which I found out is a precipitant of cold diesel). The solenoid looks new or at least not original. It seems to start right up and idle now, but...

I didn't bleed anything and it seemed to self prime after some cranking and started and idled well. Now it dies when I put it under any load (hydraulics or trans), if I put it in fwd or rev the idle will drop and it will stall unless I dump the trans or put it in N. Once today (before cleaning anything) I quickly switched the ignition off then on again as it was trying to quit and saved it, thinking that if it was some kind of faulty immobilizer wired to the solenoid it would reset. (I originally thought the fuel cutoff solenoid was a safety feature, forgetting that diesel engines will keep running without electricity!) Can fuel draw past the solenoid under load pull it closed if the solenoid coil on it's way out?

I have been reading the forums here and elsewhere and will be draining/cleaning the fuel tank & fuel lines. One question I have is regarding the inlet pipe filter on the IP. thepumpguysc warned of keeping the guts in that port and only taking out the filter, but my guts came out with the filter. Its a sleeve with a cap under it holding a spring and small bushing that slides up and down based on pressure I would assume. Fuel flows through this assembly through a small slit. I'm wondering if this assembly is indexed? It seemed to go back together fine, no leaks, etc. Just a bit worried about thepumpguysc's warning to keep guts in.

I will start with bleeding it ( if I can figure out what to crack on the IP based on the posts!) cleaning the tank and checking the solenoid & wiring as stated above. This machine was not well taken care of but i'm slowly getting it back into shape. I think it got sold because of a battery drain that I already hunted down (starter) and this issue that the prev owner said JCB fixed by replacing a collapsing fuel feed line from tank to sediment bowl (apparently they/he lied) . I'm also going to plug a cheap VDO hr meter into it and see what the mystery hrs are, which is scary. Any tips on bleeding or other general help(block heater, battery warmer?) is appreciated.

 

[Delmer]

A block heater always makes for easier starts. A tank heater is easier to install, just uses more electricity, but heats faster so probably the same if you turn it on closer to when you start it, like 30-60 minutes.

I don't think bleeding it will do anything at all. Once it's idled for 5 minutes, there's no more air to bleed.

You know you have rust in the tank. Rust is probably plugging the intake in the tank. If you have a priming lever on a diaphragm transfer pump, then you can use the feel of the lever to tell what the pressure and vacuum situation is. It will pump hard sucking a vacuum (plugged supply), pump too easy when it's pumped up to pressure (the diaphragm is held back by the fuel pressure and you're only moving the return spring), and a full even stroke means it's pumping fuel freely (line opened). Take the lines off and test it with your finger plugging the ports, then put it back and you'll see what I mean.

But really, just clean the tank, or run it off a temporary tank till you get it sorted out. And use jumper cables, block heater, whatever to get it to start quick before you kill your battery, starter and alternator.

I would have thought a perkins would be impossible to restart after changing the filter without bleeding it, probably at the injectors too. Makes me afraid of what you consider "some cranking".

 

[thepumpguysc]

The transfer pump regulator IS NOT indexed.. just drop it in..
That is a self bleeding pump if I'm thinking correctly.. if it has a bleed screw it'll be a double screw by the name plate.. 7/16 body w/ a 5/16 bleeder, screwed in the top of it..
Just loosen the inlet line, crank the engine over until you get fuel.. tighten line..
Next, loosen ALL the lines AT the injectors or as many as you can reach..& crank until you get fuel & tighten..
Some #'s off the name plate would be most helpful in diagnosing this problem.. some of the newer pumps have small filters that are accessable from the outside, besides the one in the inlet..
WE/YOU ALREADY KNOW you have a rust/contamination problem, let me help you find out how far its reached..
Was the inlet filter gunked-up??

 

[6spdman]

I only need to crank if for about 2 1/2 hrs off and on before it fired..

Nah, just kidding. It was 3 or 4 - 15 sec sessions with a minute break for the battery to come back up.

One confession. The "guts" of the inlet regulator actually came out in one piece, but popped apart on my bench (in my driveway) so I used my powers of deduction to put it back together, hopefully correctly. Most of my ID plates are so worn I can't read them. I believe the motor is an "AR" build if that means anything. I'll have another look at the IP plate.

The Inlet filter was less gunked than I had hoped. there was a lint looking nugget inside the screen, which I assume to be the dirty side of the screen. Also some of the waxy substance. I realized after web searching that my lift pump is not stock. It has a removable top with a screw in the center and a screen under the cap vs the screen under the inlet double nut. That screw was leaking on re-installation so I cobbled up a temp gasket. I noticed a metal fuel line was brazed but didn't look at which one it was (it was a really short, 90 deg line). I didn't pay much attention because the machine ran great for days so that line must flow ok.

I think an inline filter after the sediment bowl is good insurance, as mentioned in another post. There's also a heater in the intake with a fuel line going to it that is disconnected, and a sensor on the back of the water pump near the IP that is also disconnected, as well as a plug under the IP on the block that is not connected. not sure what any of these do. I thought the plug on water pump was coolant temp but the gauge works and there is a sensor on the big pipe under the radiator. The one on the block is oil temp maybe for an high oil temp light. The heater on the intake makes the engine shut off if I plug it in while it's running so that is a project for another time, but probably doesn't help cold starts.

When I replace the lift pump I'll try to feel the resistance difference for future reference. Thanks for all the input, updates to follow.

 

[greg9504]

There's also a heater in the intake with a fuel line going to it that is disconnected

What year is your 212s? Given your description of the heater in the intake with fuel line, you have a Perkins with a "Pre heater". These burn diesel to warm the engine prior to trying to start, it is most definitely to help cold starts. If you had the Tier II engine you'd have glow plugs instead. I have glow plugs on mine and there is a sensor in the coolant path that will trigger the glow plug circuit.




Your heater is number 8, thermostart (not a thermostat!).

If I can make one suggestion, please post pictures. It's so easy to do and will help people see what you are describing. Also I have the user and shop manual for around 2002 and up models, if I haven't already done so I can send them to you.

Greg.

 

[Northclint]

The diesel flame intake preheater on my 1994 217 S is in my intake manifold directly after the turbo. (perkins t4.236) However, there is another line entering the front end of the intake manifold. NO IDEA what purpose this one serves. It is supplied by what looks like an extra, bolt on component attached to the cav pump, being fed from the return lines off the injectors. Probasbly should have just started another thread, because I am having similar, but not identical symptoms on my machine. That's why i'm here. You guys are great. Lots of good info and places to start without even posting a problem.

 

[greg9504]

Northclient - it's probably better to start a new thread, because it's not clear what your problem is. There were two machines with two different problems in this thread.

If you can, post your machine serial number too along with a good description of your problem.

 

[6spdman]

I'm back! Finally got the new lift pump and line to the filter. Still getting air at the injectors. No air coming out of the injector pump bleeder however.. Is it possible for the injector pump to be sucking the air internally? is that how they fail or do they fail a pressure test when they go? at a loss

 

[thepumpguysc]

The inj. pump will only suck air at the inlet & possibly at the fuel return lines..
If its sucking air at the return lines, some are routed back to the filter head & run thru the pump again..therefor, air in the system, right into the inlet of the pump.
& some return lines are ran straight back to the fuel tank..

 

[6spdman]

Thanks. I just checked all vac side up to the filter housing with shaving cream to see if it pulled it in anywhere. Looked tight. The bleeder on the pump near the return line flows with no air, it just seems like it is just at the injectors. Going to pull the return system and eyeball. Is there a way to detect with air pressure? I feel like the injectors will leak unless I block them off.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Don't use vaccum on rubber lines.. they need PRESSURE to leak..
No more than 4-6psi or you might blow a seal.. { NO, that just frost} lol {for those that know that joke}
If your pulling a vac on rubber grommets/OLIVES to test.. you might just be pulling them IN & sealing the leak.???
Use air pressure & soapy water & look for bubbles..
Where the hellare you from that somebody uses shaving cream & vaccum to test for a leak!!!??? LOL LOL.. That's a new one.. One for the books..
Sorry, I just "thought" it was funny.. No hard feelings..

 

[6spdman]

Ha! No worries. Didn't pull a vacuum, let it run and looked for it to pull in the shaving cream where it may have been pulling air. Wish I would have found something so it could be a proven method! Going to go through the return system and see what I find.

 

[6spdman]

I found my check valve on the return line of the IP (to the return block on top of fuel filter) is leaking a bit in the reverse direction, could that cause my air intrusiion?

 

[6spdman]

So..In case anyone from the future searches and finds this thread, my solution will be of little help. When I first had a fuel blockage I pulled the fuel feed plate off the tank and cleaned it out. Well I put a clear fuel line between the tank and sediment bowl to check for air bubbles. Under manual pumping at the liift pump, no bubbles. Fire it up and no bubbles at first, then many bubbles. Pulled the hose to drain the tank and no fuel? Blew air back through line and got fuel. Drain the tank and found a RAG in the tank from when I "cleaned" it. Apparently the vacuum built up and pulled air in at the hose connection somewhere. Anyway, runs fine now.

 

[PKD62]

I have a 1990 JCB 1400b with a similar problem, when I drop the right side stabilizer the engine labors and than stalls. It doesnt happen using any other hydraulics, any help would be appreciated