Input Needed on CTL purchase!!

[dukeyjoe]

Hi fellas,
Just registered, but have lurked for a while. I've been researching CTLs and do not have any experience with any tracked machines. I live near Chattanooga, Tn and we have about every kind of dealer here. Unfortunately, I'm so busy during the week that I'm not afforded the time to make the drive into town before they close and, only the Takeuchi guy is open on Saturday. I have a horse farm as a second job and plan to use this piece of equipment moving hay, consolidating brush piles, brush cutting sloped areas and digging out the side of a hill for a pistol range. So far, I've, only, looked at a TL230 with remaining factory warranty till 12/13, C/H/A with 230 hrs. and toothed bucket for 38K. Tomorrow I am going to look at a, privately owned, open cab JCB 1110T with 1300 hrs. This JCB had new tracks put on at 1000 hrs., comes with 78 in. Bradco construction grapple, pallet forks, non-toothed bucket and a Versatech rake for 20K. I had never seen a JCB till I saw the man's ad, eventhough there is a dealer near by and have read a lengthy, unflattering thread here about the older machines. The more I read, the more confused I become, lol. My wife wants me to buy a new ( ie. warrantied ) machine with a cab. In short order, I would like to know your opinion of the two machines/deals above and/or input on what would be the best new machine for my application.
TIA,
Duke

Rangers Lead The Way

 

[KSSS]

It all would come down to how much you want to spend. 40K for a CTL that your going to use around the horse farm seems like a lot to me but I am sure your on top of that. Considering your pondering spending this kind of money, personally I would take a day off and investigate your options a little more. Standard warranty on these is typically only a year, so the warranty, while nice may not be worth the money if you can find a really clean used machine ( considering the light duty work you have in mind). Between these two, TK builds a fine machine, JCB at least the older ones that so much but spending an additional 20K may not pay for your application.

PS. Graduated Ranger School class 11-91

 

[dukeyjoe]

Man, everyone must be out at a hoe-down :cool

 

[dukeyjoe]

Hooah KSSS, you were, evidently, typing while I was trying to post my poor attempt at humor. Thanks for the response and you may be correct about the cheaper machine for my farm application. I am planning on buying some more land to build a horse person's campground, so to speak. Will be cutting some riding trails which might require heavier equipment. Is the JCB a good buy, IYO?
Thanks for your service. Never got my chance at Ranger School, before I got hurt and medically discharged. Went through RIP and was at 1st Batt at Hunter.
Duke

 

[heymccall]

SVL75........Have one of those and 3 TL150s. Visibility out of the Kubota is tremendously better than out of my TL150s.

 

[snocrete]

If you plan to "clear trails", you may want to consider hyd capabilities(high flow brush hog, etc, etc)?? It sounds to me you have the money to spend on a CTL, if your already comfortable with the prices you mentioned.?. Personally, I've never been overly impressed with Taks hyd performance over some of the other big name machines of comparable size (Case, Cat, Bobcat)...but I do think they are a good solid machine that will move material as well as any, and have proven their performance in the larger excavating outfits. JCB is oddball, I wont recommend one. I think the presence of them in the market speaks for itself, along with the majority of threads you will find here discussing them.

Dealer support may be something you should make the effort to get a feel for. If your spending that kind of money, don't you think you should make the time to visit the local dealers?

FWIW, I recently played around in a new Bobcat T590. Very nice machine, imo.

 

[dukeyjoe]

Thanks fellas. I will definitely be checking out some other machines. My wife has been doing some leg work for me and went to the Bobcat dealer. He suggested a T650 at 53.4K vs. the T590 at 48.5K. The Kubota looks interesting, but I don't know anything about them. Does the Kubota SVL75 perform as good as the TL230? I can get a new TL230 with cab, ac, and heat for 45K.

 

[KSSS]

I agree with TK's lower hyd. performance historically, however on the newest machines I think that has been addressed. I ran a Kubota 75 against several other machines during an OEM comparision event. I was not impressed. I have to think the 90 is a better machine, but the 75 did not impress me. I own a 2012 CASE TR320. I am very happy with this machine. I also ran the smaller TR270 at the same event earlier mentioned and I was very impressed with it as well.

I would not buy a pre2011 JCB, unless you got an incredible deal on it. I personally would search like Iron Planet, internet or shop auction sales and try and find a gem at good price. Spending that kind of money on a new CTL that wont be making you money directly doesn't seem like a great idea, certainly you could use the money else where. You could buy a decent used CTL and a mini ex for the same 50K you would spend on the Bobcat CTL. Again not trying to tell you how to spend your money, just offering suggestions.

 

[dukeyjoe]

Is your TR320 an open or closed cab and what did it run price wise? Also, what sold you on this machine over the other ones. I've been doing some reading around the forum and you seem togo to a lot of these events trying stuff out.

 

[KSSS]

It was priced in the mid 50's. Its got an enclosed cab and two high flow systems. What sold me was the power, the comfort of the cab and I liked the control system. Its just a really comfortable, productive machine to run. I only compared the CAT 279C and the TR320 when I was buying. Both machines had their pluses and negatives, but considering everything including price, the CASE seemed the better machine, so far, I am happy with my decision.

 

[dukeyjoe]

Two high flow systems? What do you use this for? I'm going to check one of these out. What about the Cat 299d XHP?
Also is there any differences in the year models of the TRs? All the # changes can get confusing, especially with the Cats.

 

[StumpyWally]

dukeyjoe:
Last fall I decided to buy a SSL or CTL for use on my property. I was looking in the 60 hp class in order to keep the weight & size down, because I have grass & wet conditions, & I wanted to use it in the winter for snow. I gave up looking at used equipment, because everything I could find was beat pretty bad, & I didn't want to spend most of my time re-building the machine. I'm not a mechanic by trade, I'm a retired Civil Engineer/Computer Systems Mgr. So, I looked pretty hard at a new Cat, Deere, Case, New Holland, JCB, Kubota. Keep in mind that I already have a 2005 New Holland/Kobelco EH80 CS excavator with hydraulic thumb & wide steel tracks (about 825 hrs) that I love.

Early on I dismissed the Kubota CTL's, as they were more hp & $ than I was ready for. They did look nice, though, & I liked the slide up door (unique). But I've since heard that by design the Kubota CTL's will not counter-rotate the tracks??

JCB quickly became my first choice because of the beautiful & unique side-entry cab!! But they stopped selling the small frame units in Q4 2012 because of boom alignment problems as near as I can tell. The large frame units were OK, because the booms were line-bored, which I understand is now the case with the small units as well.

The Cats I looked at were all MTL's using the ASV suspended track under carriage. All those units were (& still are) B models. The B model cabs were not great & I didn't like them. I have since looked at other wheeled Cats that are C models, & the C cabs & overall design are MUCH nicer.

The Deere units turned me off because of the removable side panels on the engine compartment, which were hard to remove, didn't bolt on & felt like they would just rattle. And Deere sales weren't very friendly.

That left Case & New Holland, which are essentially the same machine...they are made in the same factory in Witchitaw, KS., they have the same cabs (except Case uses a restraint bar & NH uses a shoulder belt), & there are slight differences in their boom linkage & rear tower design. NH only uses vertical lift (they pioneered it with their super boom), whereas Case offers both radial lift & the vertical lift they got from NH. They both offer optional high-flow hydraulics & optional high-pressure hydraulics. They also have the longest wheelbases in the industry, which translates into stability.

I wound up buying a NH L220 (60 hp, vertical lift, see my signature below for other options) with rubber over the tire tracks from Camoplast. The OTT's were much less expensive & more maintenance free than the MTL track system. I also have the best relationship with the NH dealer of any of them. In an upcoming thread I plan on listing the minor improvements I've made (& CNH could make) to the L2xx line, but I still love my L220. But after owning/using it through the winter, including in the woods, for a while now, I have the following feelings:

1. 
   Getting in & out of a SSL/CTL is the worst & most dangerous thing about them...especially when it's wet. If you work alone, like me, then you'll likely have lots of reasons to get in/out often. And you can't get in/out when the boom is half up, unless you take the front door off. Because of that I still dream of the side-entry JCB!!
2. Two of the best (& unique) things about my NH is the rear drawbar (to which I have added 2" receiver hitch tubes), & the boom up restraint pins which are operated from within the cab, as opposed to the typical external safety strut on other machines. These 2 features should be shared by Case.
3. If you will be running ANY rotary attachments (like mover, brush cutter, etc.), absolutely get the optional high flow hydraulics, & you might consider the optional high pressure hydraulics as well.
4. Even though you think you don't need it, one of the most useful & cheaper attachments you should consider is a set of pallet forks. In addition to moving around the obvious, you can move your other attachments around quickly without hooking them up.
5. Even though my OTT's allow me to go where a wheeled machine wouldn't dare, & work well in snow, my ground contact pressure is still about 5 psi. That's still pretty rough on turf. To do any better, consider a CTL with the wide 17" tracks with a non-agressive turf tread. For example, a heavier, 74hp JCB 260T has a contact pressure of only 3.9 psi.
6. If you consider Cat, only look at C class (or better) machines.
7. If you will be using an auger in the future, consider a vertical lift machine for the straight vertical lift path that doesn't require moving to keep the auger plumb.
8. Even the best CTL is a poor dozer & a terrible excavator. If you can, get at least a small excavator to supplement the CTL.

Here is a pic of my L220 at work this past winter...

 

[KSSS]

Two high flow systems? What do you use this for? I'm going to check one of these out. What about the Cat 299d XHP?
Also is there any differences in the year models of the TRs? All the # changes can get confusing, especially with the Cats.

The machine has a typical high flow system with around 36 gpm and 3050 psi and an enhanced high flow with 34 gpm and 4000 psi. I have forestry mulcher that takes a lot of power and flow to run. The newest CASE machines have the latest updates to the EH control system. You would want to ask a salesman on the VIN number break on the machines with the generation 3 EH updates. Mine is gen 2 and I like it but I think they made some console updates that I think would be helpful and made some controllability updates so I was told.

 

[dukeyjoe]

StumpyWally,
Thanks for the informative post and that's a nice looking machine. You and KSSS have got me thinking now about getting a mini-excavator, as well as a CTL. I will have to give that some thought. Not sure how much I would use it, but I do have a few ponds on the place. Can a low flow brush cutter be used on one? If I were to get both, it would compel me to look, only in the used market.

Back to the CTL dilemma. Vertical vs. radial lift patterns? Advantages and disadvantages? PSI would have been more important, prior to the lake being dug, because all that ground was nothing but mushy saw grass and springs. Guess low PSI would help not tear up the pasture, as well, but is digging traction sacrificed with low PSI?

Sounds like you, really, considered the JCBs. I know they are an oddball, but I like the side entry and yes, I'm always by myself in the woods and back acreage.There is a JCB dealer close, but I don't know how easy they will be to deal with. They have a used 2008 1110T w/ new engine and 800 hrs listed on their website for $50K. What do you think about the deal on the JCB I listed in the OP? I know it's not the New Generation machine and it doesn't have a cab, but it's only 20K. I was planning to go look at it today, but am indecisive. He, supposedly, has another guy wanting it on Monday and I'm afraid that if I go try it out that I will buy it, lol. He is a big JCB fan and told me to try a JCB whether I buy his or not. Pics of this machine below. Is this the big framed machine that were line bored? Thanks for the insights. Do you have any pics of the 4 pt lift? What was it's cost?

 

[dukeyjoe]

KSSS, thanks again for the reply. I looked at the Cases a bit last night. I'll keep gen 2 vs. gen3 in mind if I buy new. TR vs. TV = lift pattern?

 

[StumpyWally]

dukeyjoe:
As to CASE TR vs. TV, yes, "R" = radial lift & "V" = vertical lift.

As to a low flow brush cutter on a mini-ex, I would think that any brush cutter on a CTL would work better, but I don't have any direct experience with either. Search this HEF for posts/treads on this subject....I recall seeing some recently on this subject.

Radial lift = best for pushing & digging (stronger), somewhat more reach at mid-height (for loading/unloading pallets)....Vertical lift = constant reach at all heights (great for augering), usually higher overall reach (for loading dump trucks). I have heard that most SSL's/CTL's being sold are chosen with vertical lift.

As to ground contact pressure, I suspect that a lower contact pressure does sacrifice some digging traction, but I think MUCH more important are track pattern & machine balance or weight distribution. Consider that Takeuchi CTL's have traditionally been the strongest diggers, & they are designed from the ground up as a CTL, with a more solid undercarriage like a dozer (Takeuchi originated the CTL). Most other manufacturers put a CTL undercarriage on their otherwise designed SSL. And track pattern...The typical lug style (as shown in your photo of the JCB Robot) will have better traction in firm ground than the smoother styles, but they are hell on turf!!

Also, consider that all SSL/CTL's have very little ground clearance, typically 8" to 9", so it doesn't take much to belly them out & hang them up if the ground is soft or their contact pressure is too high for the ground conditions. Pardon the pun, but if you can't stay "afloat" with your CTL, you're "sunk". And who...or what... is going to pull you out??

An exception is the Terex/ASV, which typically have a ground clearance of 10" to 12", but they are substandard in so many other ways (mainly in the spartan cab), that I would consider them only as a specialty machine for limited purposes. Having said that, they do have a fully suspended track undercarriage (Cat uses it on their MTL's), which gives them by far the best ride & floatation, & with the right turf track, the best performance on turf & snow. The suspension system allows the track to conform to the ground. Think tank undercarriage for gun stability. But that suspension system can be high & expensive maintenance if not cleaned regularly, if run a lot on pavement or stone, or otherwise misused,

As to the JCB Robot, I've never actually seen one, but I understand the newer generation JCB's are MUCH improved, & simplified. For example, the new ones use standard flat-faced O-ring hydraulic connections, whereas the older "Robot" & its generations used some British standard. I would only consider the Robot if it was a REALLY good deal, & you knew all the facts before committing, & the JCB dealer was reasonably close & friendly. Contact some of the JCB users in the JCB thread on this HEF, for example, like Dave Esterns (https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?16914-JCB-Skid-Steer/page4&highlight=jcb+skid

I don't know if the Robot arm hinge was line bored or not, or if it is small or large frame. I only have info on the new ones as follows:
Small frame JCB CTL = 150T radial, 190T vertical (same as Volvo MCT 85), 205T vertical, all have 12.6 " wide tracks
Large frame JCB CTL = 225T radial, 260T vertical (same as Volvo MCT 125), 300T vertical (same as Volvo MCT 135), 320T vertical, all have 17.7" wide tracks

Attached are pics of the 4-pt lift on my New Holland L220. The first view is of the front. This is the primary reason I opted for the 4-pt lift kit, to get the front attach points, for pulling & fastening stuff.


This view is of one of the back lift points behind the cab. I don't consider the rear points particularly useful for me...Couldn't get just the front ones.

The 4-pt lift cost about $238...yeah, I know, too much!!

I hope all this info helps. I encourage you to at least go look at & drive the JCB Robot. The side entry door will at least forever change your view of CTL's. Although I never drove a JCB new generation, I early on did drive a Volvo MCT 135 (a re-branded JCB 300T). It was a bigger (92 hp, 11,200 lbs) machine than I wanted, & more expensive, but what an experience. I fell in love with it... If I had to do it all over again, I would seriously consider a JCB 260T (vertical, 74 hp, 10,690 lbs, 4.6 psi ground contact due to the 17.7" wide tracks) just to get the wide tracks. To hold the cost down, my second choice would be a JCB 190T (vertical, 59.9 hp, 8,195 lbs, 6.2 psi ground contact due to 12.6" wide tracks), but I would REALLY investigate an option to put the wide tracks on it, which could reduce its contact pressure about 40% to under 4 psi. I suspect that any of these JCB options would have cost me probably $10k to $20k more than the $48.1k (including tax & fees) for my NH L220 with Camoplast OTT. At the time, that was more $ than I wanted to spend, but everytime I get in & out of my front-door machine - & it's a lot - I dream of that JCB...

 

[dukeyjoe]

Thanks again StumpyWally,
I didn't go drive the JCB today. Had a retired, high earnings, rope horse go down. He got a snake bite on the ankle and most the tissue, including part of the joint capsule has sluffed down over the coronary band on to his hoof. Since my Bobcat 773 is down with a major hydraulic leak, I may end up buying something quicker than planned, since it looks like I will be putting him down in the near future. He can still hobble around, but his prognosis is poor. We are, just, keeping him comfortable right now.

Btw, that JCB in the pics is a 97 hp turbo, according to the seller's ad. I see other 1110Ts with a 94 hp rating on the equipment trader. The guy has not used it in a year and kept it indoors. He is selling cause he has cancer and has racked up some medical bills. Looking into the Cases, as well.

Also, spoke with the salesman for Takeuchi and that "loaded out" 2011 TL230 with c/ac/h with 238 hrs. can be bought for 34K with a toothed bucket. It's warranty goes out in December 13, but he says I can buy an extended one. It has reg flow hydraulics. He, also, sells a reg flow bluediamond 72" open front brush cutter for $5,900. I will, mostly be using it to dig and clear under rush up to 5-6" diameter. What say you on this deal? Anyone else please chime in.
TIA,
Duke

 

[RCTech9]

I would buy something with a cab that way if brush comes flying at you it hits the glass not you.

 

[dukeyjoe]

I would buy something with a cab that way if brush comes flying at you it hits the glass not you.

I like the way you think RC! Wife is saying the same thing, cause I've gotten into some yellow jackets before

Also, the Takeuchi TL230CR just dropped to $34,300 per the salesman. Evidently, they are changing the TL230 to a TL8 in July.

 

[CM1995]

They have a used 2008 1110T w/ new engine and 800 hrs listed on their website for $50K.

First question one needs to ask about that machine is why it has a new engine with only 800 hours.:cool2

A cab is a must if you will be running a bushhog for many reasons - dust, debris and most important the occasional yellow jacket nest that you will come across. If you are going to run a full fledged brush cutter then you need the front lexan door designed for brush cutting. A glass door will shatter if a large enough piece of debris hits it, I have busted a few in my time from other items on the job site hitting the glass.