I guess a dumb dozer ?

[John White]

I would like a comments from dozer people in the know. JD, Case, ETC has not made any of the small (baby dozers) Case 350 or JD 350. in 20-25 years. I guess the reason for discontuneing them was a 450 wasnt much larger. But can you remember back then, we didnt have CDL and all that crap. If a farmer had a big grain truck and a heavy flat bed trailer and he needed to haul a dozer he just did it. Now with all the CDL and other requirements when you go over that 26000 gvw you are in a whole new ball game and it is just not worth it for the small operator. Why cant a American mfg make a small dozer in the 10000 lb class. so you can stay under cdl. I see alot landscapers and even some rentals have these gray market dozers. Komatsu and Mitsubishi. (I have one) I would prefer to own a American made dozer. These grey market dozers are pretty nice dozers compared to the old 350 made 30 years ago. I understand that thease grey mkt. dozers sell for around $60,000 when new. You mean to tell me a American mfg cant make a small dozer for that amount. I Know thats probably more than a Case or JD 450 would cost. I guess my theory is that a large skid steer could do as much or more than one of thease little grey mkt. dozers. for alot less money. They sure seem to import alot of them. I seen a little dozer I think called a "Rayco" I think which is American made and looked almost like a skid steer with tracks on it. Seemed to be pretty fast and efficent. Dont know any more that what I seen a opertator using one off in a distance but it still looked like a skid steer and not a dozer. The thing about the grey mkt. dozers is parts and service, especilly if it is a Mitsubishi. Or why doesnt Cat which owns a interest in Mitsubishi make one or import one and provide parts and service. With all our jobs and money going over seas, you would think a mfg would jump on this. (look how many of these little Chinese (junk) dozers they are bringing in now, and selling for around $13,000) I know my little dozer would make a good hood orinement on a radiator cap of a D11 cat. And I guess every one with the larger dozers and big trucks and CDL will say " if you cant keep up with the big dogs, get off the porch" But I still think ther is a nitch out there for the small 10000 lb dozer. Maybe I am trying to equate this to why buy one of these new "Smart Cars" that sell for $13,500 when you can get a better and larger car from Toyota or Nissan, Honda, Hundi for $12000 Would like to hear some of your thoughts on this.

 

[Dozerboy]

The laws are changing soon every one with a 1 ton that hauls for profit needs a CDL. Lots of skid steers have a tracked version now a days, so I do see anyone trying to make a dozer to compeat with that.

 

[itsgottobegreen]

Bobcat T332 with a 90" 6 way blade is about the smallest dozer you can get basically. But thats what a small dozer has to compete with for the same money. And you can't used as a swiss army knife. So thats why there isn't a demand for one.

 

[John White]

Yes, I agree that a skid steer with a blade can almost do as much and in some cases more that these little dozers. I had a skid steer with a blade, but still prefered the dozer for most grading jobs. They say there is not a demand for them. Then why do they import so many of the Komatsu D20 and the Mitsubishi BD2's. And now Northern Tool and others are importing and selling the cheap Chinese dozers. I think some American mfg. is missing a opportunity. Can you imagine how many farmers and land scapers, and play boys, would love to have a small dozer, lets say about 45 to 50 hp with a 3 point hitch, and still under 10,000 lbs. I know there are still alot of Case and JD 350 out there. Most are wore out and dont even compete with the ease of operation compared to the imports. (I've owned 3 of them). I know we can argue the CDL implimation till the cows come home. But my basic feeling is that as a small businessman I am "taxed, regulated, permitted, licensed, insured, bonded and pick pocketed to death". Its no wonder that alot of our small business are closeing. For example in my area, in 2004 I could install a septic system for $3500. Now is is $20,000. Due to fees, regulations, permits, licensing and the libility must be assumed by the installer in event of problems and none to the home owner or the regulating authorities, which regulate, govern and ditcate the methods of instillation which could lead to failure. I hear that they are building a small car in India that sells for less than $2500. now. At what point will the govt. have squeezed the last drop of blood out of the American people and businessman. Through regulation. I know regulation has its place. But all the regulatilon and permitting solved a whole lot? Look at the regulation, licenseing, and permitting of fire arms. The good people are not going to misuse them any way and the violent one you cannot stop with all the regulatilons in the world.

 

[JEFF PRYCL]

Little Dozer

You Are Correct About All The Legal Hassles Of Cdl, Carrier Insurance, Etc. Found You Can Haul Around 7 Ton 14,000 Legal With A Light Dually 10,000 Gvw And 16,000 Gvw Trailer If You Can Keep Your Light Weight Under 12,000. Have A Fl70 Freightliner That Has A Light Flatbed That Weighs 11,800 With Driver And Fuel. Need A Medical Card And Dot #.

 

[digger242j]

(Since I'm able to beat Countryboy to this one)-- Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums, JEFF PRYCL ! (From another western PA guy.)

 

[John White]

You Are Correct About All The Legal Hassles Of Cdl, Carrier Insurance, Etc. Found You Can Haul Around 7 Ton 14,000 Legal With A Light Dually 10,000 Gvw And 16,000 Gvw Trailer If You Can Keep Your Light Weight Under 12,000. Have A Fl70 Freightliner That Has A Light Flatbed That Weighs 11,800 With Driver And Fuel. Need A Medical Card And Dot #.

Jeff: From what I have been told is that a 10,000 Gvw rating truck. (F350) and a 10,000 GVW rating trailer is the heavest I can handle and be legal. I understand that if I have a 12,000 gvw trailer (regardless of weight being hauled) even pulling it with my F350 I must have a cdl. Ive often wondered if I had a on my 10,000 gvw trailer if is weighed 11,000 loaded if they would still give me a ticket. I think the empty weight of my trailer is abouty 2500 and my little dozer weighs about 9,000 makeing me a little over weight. I have added heaiver springs and brakes to make it safer. When you get in to a cdl you open a whole can of worms.

 

[Steve Frazier]

Don't forget some of that weight will be transferred to the tow vehicle in tongue weight, so you may not have as much weight on the trailer as you think. You're best bet is to take the combination to some scales loaded and weigh with the whole rig on and then just the trailer on the scale still hooked to the truck. You should select a scale that is fairly level, that is without approach ramps, as the ramps will interfere with an accurate reading due to weight transfer by gravity.

 

[RT Engineering]

I understand what you mean with all the taxes and fees, but the CDL is not that big of a deal. So you have to pass another test, and keep the medical card updated every two years. It is much cheaper to get the license, than to be involved in an accident while pulling a 10,000 gvw trailer without the CDL. Then you could be responsible no matter what, even if it is not your fault. And since you do not have the proper license for the vehicle, your insurance might have a way out.

My understanding is that the CDL is required to pull any trailer with a gvw of 10,000 lbs or more, regardless of the load on the trailer. So it is going to be very difficult to move a 9000 lb machine and keep the total load under 9999 lbs.

Moving the small dozer(5-6 tons), excavator, or skid steer behind the F350 is not a problem. I do it a few times a week, I have a 16,000 gvw gooseneck trailer with excellent brakes, and a CDL.

I still will not move my JD 605C track loader, or a D5G with a pickup. There is just not enough truck there, you might get away with it for a while. But it is a gamble I refuse to make.

As for the machines, it would be nice to have a little dozer with steel tracks, that I can move myself. But the little machines just do not move very much material. Most often I would rather pay the lowbed and use the larger machine.

Later,

RT

 

[bear]

if you are using the truck say on a farm and for only youself you are known as "not for hire" operator. farmers etc. don't have to have cdl's on their property or in a certain boundry from their home town. if you are a contractor ... it would be best to pony up and get the cdl. depending on the wight range you are hauling you will find it easy to tailor that particular aspect to your operation. The company i used to work for as a lineman had a few 1 ton p/u and they had DOT numbers and had to go across scales and everything like us in bucket and digger trucks and had to have a driver with cdl's because it was a commercial application. hope this helps. happy easter!

 

[EZ TRBO]

Some farmers may think it is a pain in the rear to have to get a cdl to drive a semi and so forth. DEAL with it, I myself think that no matter who you are a semi is still a semi. Honestly it really irks me that I can drive the same tractor trailer with grain, hay, or equipment as a farmer and as long as he is only taking it from his own farm to his own farm he doesn't need a cdl. If they have to travel the same state highways and county roads as us guys moving equiment then they should have to have a CDL. Honestly its just a good thing to have and for their own saftey, if you are ever in a wreck the DOT and insurance companines will have a hay day with you. I know there were a ton of guys last year that got nailed hauling corn across the river to one of the large grain elevators and didn't think they needed a CDL cause they were hauling their own corn, as soon as you are taking in to a commercial plant its CDL time. Sorry to get off track.

As far as the small dozer market goes, I can see where some guys like em etc, but I know from the handful of farmers that have em around home, they all have JD 750's, D5, D6, and TD-15's, not super huge but not tiny either, good for taking out trees, leveling out a pad or two, and maintaining field roads. Some have a problem with these guys having their own dozers as it takes away business from contractors, however there are a few that we used to do a lot of work for that only used theirs to take some trees out, fill in a ditch here or there and most of all, had a toy for a tax right off. Any time any precise work was required they would call us. So all and all its not a bad thing, for the most part.

Trbo

 

[John White]

I understand what you mean with all the taxes and fees, but the CDL is not that big of a deal. So you have to pass another test, and keep the medical card updated every two years. It is much cheaper to get the license, than to be involved in an accident while pulling a 10,000 gvw trailer without the CDL. Then you could be responsible no matter what, even if it is not your fault. And since you do not have the proper license for the vehicle, your insurance might have a way out.

My understanding is that the CDL is required to pull any trailer with a gvw of 10,000 lbs or more, regardless of the load on the trailer. So it is going to be very difficult to move a 9000 lb machine and keep the total load under 9999 lbs.

Moving the small dozer(5-6 tons), excavator, or skid steer behind the F350 is not a problem. I do it a few times a week, I have a 16,000 gvw gooseneck railer with excellent brakes, and a CDL.

I still will not move my JD 605C track loader, or a D5G with a pickup. There is just not enough truck there, you might get away with it for a while. But it is a gamble I refuse to make.

As for the machines, it would be nice to have a little dozer with steel tracks, that I can move myself. But the little machines just do not move very much material. Most often I would rather pay the lowbed and use the larger machine.

Later,

RT

Yes, 10,000 is boarder line with a 1 ton. It will pull it ok but then the stopping in a emergency is a different situation. I have a dump truck rated at 19,000 which I perfer to pull it with that but that makes me totally in the CDL catagory. Though fully loaded, truck, trailer and dozer, I only weigh less than 20,000. Its just with my type of work, every thing goes up when going to a CDL. If a person needs his drive way smoothed up in the spring. I can come in and in a couple of hours have ilt done and make $200. You cant haul a 450 dozer, with truck, paying cdl Insurance and license and make any money . I dont necessarly try to cut out the larger dozer operators. I have just found a "nitche" in the excvating business that the larger ones cant do or wont touch, and I make money at it. I ran into a fellow the other day who needed a small ditch dug for a drainage pipe. He called a couple of fellows with a 580 back hoe. They wanted $475 at least to do it. He called the local rental dealer to rent a ditch witch and do hilmself, they wanted $200 rental fee. I told him I would do it for $200, plus $30 for fuel, which he would have to rent a trailer and fuel also. I make money with this type of work and dont hurt the big boys.