Howling and Screaming Brakes, need some help...

[SeaMac]

I need some help diagnosing a howling and screaming brake issue I am having with the Deere 624J assigned to our Pipe Crew. The machine's clock just turned 7003hrs, it has been relatively well maintained and runs well but, the brakes HOWL and HOWL loudly. There's no problem with stopping power, if you mash 'em and haven't clicked your seatbelt beforehand you'll most certainly fly head first out the ROPS.

Since the disks are swimming in an oil bath I think it may be water, can't say when the last time that oil was changed and the Mech's don't know either. We're busier than we have Mech's to keep up so any info I can offer them to help is more than welcomed.

Any ideas?

 

[Nige]

As a first step if no-one knows how many hours are on the oil (where are the maintenance records?) I would change it ASAP and see if that fixes the problem. I'd be asking some searching questions as to why no-one knows how many hours are on the oil if it was my machine, but maybe that's just me being picky.

If an oil change does not provide a 100% solution try some Anti-Chatter additive. A lot of oil-cooled multiple disc brakes suffer from this issue to a greater or less extent and in many machines it's a recommended addition to the oil every time it's changed. Cat Part Number is 1U-9891 Hydraulic Oil Additive. Other similar products may be available.

 

[Bob/Ont]

I would check with dealer as to what oil they should have, and do they sell an additive for the oil when you have inboard brakes. Ford sells a friction modifier and so does Cat, Cat's is just hyd oil additive relabled.
Later Bob

 

[SeaMac]

Hey Nige,

Thanks for the reply, I figured the oil was the cause. As for those "maintenance records" who knows, for a company our size -300 employees- you would think that a simple matter. I have insisted that our PM truck come out and ACTUALLY PM this machine but that hasn't happened yet, too much work and only 1 PM rig...

As a first step if no-one knows how many hours are on the oil (where are the maintenance records?) I would change it ASAP and see if that fixes the problem. I'd be asking some searching questions as to why no-one knows how many hours are on the oil if it was my machine, but maybe that's just me being picky.

If an oil change does not provide a 100% solution try some Anti-Chatter additive. A lot of oil-cooled multiple disc brakes suffer from this issue to a greater or less extent and in many machines it's a recommended addition to the oil every time it's changed. Cat Part Number is 1U-9891 Hydraulic Oil Additive. Other similar products may be available.

 

[SeaMac]

Hey Bob,

As for checking with the dealer, I'm just an Operator and that's a matter above my pay grade. The Excavator and Loader are my responsibility though but, there's only so much I can do. I finally got the Weekly Machine Inspection Form yesterday, today I will scan to .pdf then load it up with "issues", they will heretofore never be able to say I didn't keep them apprised and informed.

I would check with dealer as to what oil they should have, and do they sell an additive for the oil when you have inboard brakes. Ford sells a friction modifier and so does Cat, Cat's is just hyd oil additive relabled.
Later Bob

 

[John C.]

I usually didn't get any squeal or howl out of internal wet disk brakes. Just a whole bunch of chatter!!

When I first worked with the Komatsu loaders that came out with the wet disks we had people installing engine oil instead of the tractor hydraulic fluid. The chatter issue came up within a couple of days of the change. A call to the dealer who made another call to the manufacture and a additive chemical showed up right away. It didn't entirely solve the problem in one wheel of one machine. We just put up with it for a year or so. When I was able to tear down the wheel and brake assembly I found some spring assemblies that were installed to force the plates apart when the brakes are released. The chatter issue fractured the springs which then screwed the broken parts into each set of coils. A new set of springs and the right oil in the pumpkins and I never had a problem again in those machines.

With your description of the noise, I would suspect the brakes are not releasing properly. Has the fluid level been rising in the axle? Diluting axle oil with hydraulic fluid could very well give you the problem you are describing.

 

[SeaMac]

Hey John,

I don't sense any drag once the pedal is released. Couldn't tell you about "rising fluid" either. What I can tell you, when depressing the pedal they make the most horrid howling sound, you couldn't hear a back-up alarm to save your life -you might actually need to- once they get to screaming the way they do.

I just ".pdf'd" our Weekly Machine Inspection Checklist and I wouldn't want to be the PM, Mech. or Fleet Manager reading what I had to say. I will however CMA should they attempt to say "I/we were never informed".

I would suspect the brakes are not releasing properly. Has the fluid level been rising in the axle? Diluting axle oil with hydraulic fluid could very well give you the problem you are describing.

 

[heymccall]

My 544Js make horrible brake noises when I don't use Hy-gard in them. I now use Hy-gard fleetwide in all my wet disc loaders, including my Komatsus and Volvos. The 1.25" headed plugs on the front of the diffs can be removed to inspect lining thickness. Grooves in the lining= good lining. No grooves= lining past it's service life.

If hydraulic fluid is added by brake piston O-ring seal failure, the axle will simply overfill itself, and eject axle oil from the breather.

That machine also has axle oil recirculators, meaning that when changing the axle oil, one must remove the fitting under the hose connection and extract it and clean the screen.

 

[SeaMac]

heymccall,

After going more than 3000 hrs I finally had the machine PM'd today, the PM "Guy" swears it's bad brakes 'cuz he changed the oil bath last year. I swear, the brakes are just fine it's the oil bath, I do Operate the machine and I think I'd know if its brakes were bad. It took a raging phone call from the General Superintedent to the Fleet Manager to get it PM'd and yes, the brakes still howl like no ones business. The GS will be on-site tomorrow AM, if he hears 'em howling I would not want to be whoever he goes off on. As for checking brake oil levels and linings, not my job and above my pay grade, I Operate, document and report.

My 544Js make horrible brake noises when I don't use Hy-gard in them. I now use Hy-gard fleetwide in all my wet disc loaders, including my Komatsus and Volvos. The 1.25" headed plugs on the front of the diffs can be removed to inspect lining thickness. Grooves in the lining= good lining. No grooves= lining past it's service life.

If hydraulic fluid is added by brake piston O-ring seal failure, the axle will simply overfill itself, and eject axle oil from the breather.

That machine also has axle oil recirculators, meaning that when changing the axle oil, one must remove the fitting under the hose connection and extract it and clean the screen.

 

[cutting edge]

You've got to use hygard or its equivalent only in those axles. no exceptions

There is a deere product called PEMO that you can add to the axles to reduce chatter or noise.

My money is on the brake discs having been contaminated with gear oil in the past.

 

[SeaMac]

Hey edge,

I will let the Fleet Manager know, thank you. I've been having "issues" getting the brake problem resolved. Little by little they are paying the machine some attention. I'm more than confident the oil bath is contaminated but this is what I'm dealing with; the PM Guy, proclaimed he changed that oil a year ago and it does NOT need any additive, 'cause he never uses additive and the brakes have been that way from the get, but of course it has, the Mechanic swore that the hydraulic fluid and filter only needed changing every 5000hrs. Hmm, not so says John Deere who applies a sticker just inside the left engine compartment door which clearly states "500hrs" and it's been a year and a half since either were changed, could have something to do with that pesky Hydraulic Filter Warning Light every morning and extremely sluggish hydraulic performance throughout the day. Then there's the rear axle trunnion bearing which apparently was replaced last year but alas its Zerk has never since seen grease, seems the "Service Guy" didn't know there was a grease fitting there, imagine that. I refer back to that John Deere applied sticker. This 624J is and I paraphrase "the best loader we've got" and I personally like the machine it just needs a little help. I do enjoy the #12 wire I have to use to hold the steering column in place 'cause the tilt adjuster/lock mechanism has decided it would rather not anymore. Like a said, little by little, slowly but surely, it just needs a little help.

You've got to use hygard or its equivalent only in those axles. no exceptions

There is a deere product called PEMO that you can add to the axles to reduce chatter or noise.

My money is on the brake discs having been contaminated with gear oil in the past.

 

[Mjrdude1]

Sounds like contamination/wear, and or wrong oil. The discs could be worn out and it would still stop good, metal to metal with enuf pressure etc.
Like cutting edge said, Hygard, no exceptions! Dunno why, but their oil makes the difference. We tried some brand x in our diffs on our Deere's and within a month went back to Hygard. We have a mixed fleet of loaders and they all get Hygard, it works. No chatter, no squeel.

 

[SeaMac]

Just wanted to thank all the contributors to this thread, I will be passing along the information received to our top Mechanic and the Fleet Manager. Thanks again!

 

[heymccall]

Any news?

 

[SeaMac]

Any news?

There sure is, they're getting worse however I have been informed by Fleet Management that my loader is next in the shop for a brake job. One of the other loaders -CAT 938G- at the project we're working on has no brakes at all so it's first in line. My loader actually does stop it just makes a horrendous noise doing so. BTW, our lead Mechanic confirmed they are metal on metal and had they done something about it when I first reported the problem it wouldn't cost the thousands it will cost now, go figure.

 

[DGODGR]

My 544J has not had the brake noise issue, and I sure hope the brakes last longer than 3,000 hours. Since I have owned this unit (about 39 months, according to the check register) I have found that there are quite a few "J" model issues. I have had to replace the gas shock on the tilt column (probably the same issue you are experiencing with yours). I don't recall exactly but I think it was over $300! I would also check to make sure that the bottom retension pin, of the gas shock assembly, is still in tight. It is a press fit and can work its way out. I have had to replace mine with a bolt and nut so I would not have this problem. If you can remove the column cover below the steering wheel you can check it out. The other isssue I am experiencing is a problem with the door latch adjustment (both closed and open). The latches are either too loose or too tight. It boils down to a door that rattles or one that will not open from the inside. Seems as though there is no middle ground.

 

[SeaMac]

My 544J has not had the brake noise issue, and I sure hope the brakes last longer than 3,000 hours. Since I have owned this unit (about 39 months, according to the check register) I have found that there are quite a few "J" model issues. I have had to replace the gas shock on the tilt column (probably the same issue you are experiencing with yours). I don't recall exactly but I think it was over $300! I would also check to make sure that the bottom retension pin, of the gas shock assembly, is still in tight. It is a press fit and can work its way out. I have had to replace mine with a bolt and nut so I would not have this problem. If you can remove the column cover below the steering wheel you can check it out. The other isssue I am experiencing is a problem with the door latch adjustment (both closed and open). The latches are either too loose or too tight. It boils down to a door that rattles or one that will not open from the inside. Seems as though there is no middle ground.

Hi DGODGR,

As I indicated in my last reply, our mechanics are to be repairing the brakes shortly. As for the steering wheel tilt-cylinder, that has long since been replaced, it does however see quite a bit of use so it going bad is expected with over 7400 hrs. This machine has an open ROPS so doors an glass aren't an issue...

 

[>HevyIndsMFGng<]

Actually, little piece of interesting info. The axle assemblies Cat uses on their BHLs are designed and manufactured by Ford, so the oil additive is the exact same for the Fords and Cats.

 

[DGODGR]

Actually, little piece of interesting info. The axle assemblies Cat uses on their BHLs are designed and manufactured by Ford, so the oil additive is the exact same for the Fords and Cats.

I thought that they were the same (I used to run Fords before Cats) but I thought they were both made by ZF. I have had to use the Ford (or by that time it was New Holland) friction modifier in my first backhoe (Cat 416B) because I used Chevron oils. I switched to Cat MTO because it was reported, by the folks at Quinn Company anyway, to include the modifier. I never needed the modifier after switching to the MTO. The newer diffs have been upgraded to include Kevlar brake pads and Cat recommends a different oil now. My 416 has the newer brake pads (I have replaced the brakes pads 2x now-about 5,000 hours per set) and they never chatter anymore.

 

[DGODGR]

I think the axles on my 544J are ZF also. I'm sure that the transmission is.
SeaMac, the steering column gas shock on my machine went out at about 1,800 hours. If you are getting 7,400 from yours then I would call that a victory. Especially if it's on an open ROPS unit.
I did not get to use enclosed cabs for over a decade. Once I started to buy my own machines I would buy them with cabs (I was planning to move somewhere that had winters). I must admit that it took a while to be able to do as good of work from behind the glass. I'll never go back to open ROPS now though.
I hope your loader is "up to snuff" soon. One of the few advantages to being self employed is that I get to choose to keep my equipment in good shape (as an employee I always hated running equipment that was not well cared for). I must admit that, the more equipment that you own, it gets much harder to keep up on all the maintenance. It gets even harder as you get busier. It sounds to me like you work for a pretty good sized outfit. I would imagine that it's pretty tough for them to keep up with all the equipment that they own too. As I think back, I recall that the equipment was less well cared for when I worked for a smaller firm (+/- 40 employees) than when I worked for a larger firm (+/- 400 employees).