How to dig a ditch...?

[stumpjumper83]

I'd charge the time it took to go get them for sure. And I'd probably check to see if I was getting a 10% cut at the yard and keep that too. If the farmer wanted to pick them up, he could have. And why give your diesel and time away for free?

 

[watglen]

I was thinking that what i should do is charge him the price of the nearest retailer. I drove a distance to pick them up at a wholesaler, and got a decent discount. I figured that makes sense.

 

[Deeretime]

10% of the culverts + the hourly rate one way from pickup to drop off, its fair. In all the owner has to understand that all you are doing is paying wear and tear on your truck aswell as making your wage and proffit out of it.
Aslong as your not charging 190hr for your rig i think its reasonable

 

[robotplant]

Hi Watglen,

Looks like your getting along just fine and have done a good chunk of the job.

I have read the earlier posts and I think I'm right in saying your using a 24 tonne excavator. If that's correct a ditching blade with teeth and minimum width of 6ft would rip into that ditch no problem with a 24 tonne behind it, 60" bucket is to small for ditching. As for giving yourself the best view , the best way is to use some of the stiffer clay to level in front of you this will give a higher view point and a level stance to work the bottom.

Another option if you find it better working in line is to use a Tapered ditching bucket ( V bucket ) , this way you will get a finish as you work and won't have to go back with a ditching blade and rework and tidy up the ditch. Not my favourite method, with a ditching blade you can work the ditch and level the dirt at the same time.

Jobs like this can be rushed through, though the more time and effort put in the better the job.

Good luck

Robo

 

[watglen]

Well, i finished tonight.

Learned a crapload on this job! Learned all about cleaning tracks, and keeping them clean, and how long to expect to spend doing it. Learned how to keep the oil in my final drives, and how to baby those seals. Learned how to dig a decent profile, with a nice flat clean bottom.

As much as this job was a total pita, i will put everything i learned in my notes for the next job. The next job will go better. By better i mean my estimate will more closely match the actual.

I still have one quick question. I kept track of my actual digging time. How do i charge for a total of 16hrs (about an hour/day) spent greasing, fueling, checking and topping up oils, CLEANING TRACKS, warming up, cooling down, changing buckets, setting up the laser, and surveying. I have heard some guys charge an hour a day for such activities. At what rate?

What do you think is the appropriate way to handle this?

 

[stumpjumper83]

Greasing, checking oils, setting up the laser, and cleaning the tracks are all part of operating a machine, cleaning the tracks is part of operating a machine in a cold environment, charge standard hourly rate for doing so.

 

[Monte1255]

I may be off base to some here, but I figure the best way to charge out those hrs is this, If the engine is runnning or you're in the seat or you're doing the grade work you are on the clock. Changing buckets means you are still on the clock, fueling, greasing, start of the day fluid checks off the clock, unless startup is required to check fluid levels. In short my feeling is that if the machine is running it is costing you money if it is sitting idle. As for rate well time is time... I just try to keep it to a responsible minimum so that nobody feels they are getting jipped. Seems to work well for me, and I've never heard any gripes.

 

[watglen]

I was thinking the same thing Monte. Those 16 hrs are basically idling time. I was breaking my back in the ice and wind and snow, but the machine was just warming or whatever. Part of me thinks those hours should be at a reduced rate, but another part of my thinks that sub zero operations need to be done at a premium to cover all the extra problems the cold can create. Starting the machine up at 10 below has to be hard on the engine and pump. Warm ups are extended. It all takes time. Plus, if the finals dump their oil and i don't catch it, it would ruin my whole year! That is a wintertime problem.

I think what is fair is bill the 16 hours at 1/2 the normal rate. That way i get something for all the aggrevation. Plus i learned a lot. By the end of the job i learned how to make the ice and frozen mud no problem at all. It didn't start out that way.

Next time i will tell the customer that there is a hour/day surcharge from Nov 15 to 1 Apr.

I would like to hear more opinions on this though.

 

[Monte1255]

In this day and age actually coming out and telling there is a surcharge won't go over well. It will be met with "oh great another one of those blankety surcharges wish I could be on the other end of the surcharge instead of having to pay them" Know what I mean?

When I get to where I am working, I've already got in mind what it is that I want to get done for the day and it is "gonna happpen" sort of mentallity. With this in mind I set to fueling, greasing, and pre startup checks. then the "responsible" portion of the startup when the clock starts, the engine cranking and warm up. tracks should be free of mud already so a clank here and there of the hammer and tracks are free and ready to roll. Simple as that. I don't know that there are any customers who would complain about that system.:my2c

In short, don't get into the surcharge game, just charge straight through hrs. or figure that into your bid if you know about how long it takes to get going in the morning and clean up in the afternoon.

 

[watglen]

Good points Monte

 

[joispoi]

Just bill by the hour meter on your machine and don't think twice about it. The value of a used machine is based on age and hours on the meter. You'll never see an ad for a machine where they give you a breakdown on warmup hours and work hours.

 

[watglen]

That's the best logic so far....

 

[kirktripp]

Just replying to get upgraded here,nice forum and great ditch

 

[watglen]

I thought I would get this thread going again, just because I finished another long new ditch for a guy, and I have been thinking about how to do a better job.

This one is 1750', near end is through bush. Ditch profile suffered once we started hitting stump holes and mud, but we did the best we could.

I would have dug from the end, but i figured I would have to maintain a path alongside so i could go back and finish the profile. The ditch was through standing corn, space was at a premium. So i dug from the side with a smooth edge, spoil pile immediately next to ditch.

Ocallavision II held grade pretty good. .1%slope, and recent rains left almost no standing water. Ditch could have held a better line, and the banks could have held a more consistent slope. Just keep practicing.

In the pic we start installing 12" smoothwall, outlet is 7'3" to invert below grade, so we moved a pile of dirt.

Notice my cutting edge, seems to work pretty well for bedding pipe.



I came across a picture perfect perimeter swale dug by someone, it was so nice I had to go take a closer look. It was done with a wrist bucket as far as i can tell. Only a foot or two deep, must have hauled the spoils. Just bloody gorgeous, perfect bottom. Damn thing looked like it was done on a milling machine.

Learned a lot about grease on this job too. I use exon mobile moly grease. Stuff warms up and starts to run down the stick. Pins get warm. Moved to something called Paragon3000, which specs out a lot higher, about as high as anything I could find on the web. Too soon to tell if it's any better, but it can't hurt. It isn't much more than the moly i have been using, so its worth it.

 

[Oxbow]

Watglen, I just finished reading this thread, and regarding how to charge for the time spent greasing, shoveling tracks, warm up etc., I adjust my hourly rate to cover such things before quoting a job (if it is by the hour). We de a bunch of work in the winter, with temperatures well below zero and mud to clean out of the tracks everynight (you only skip that step once). We still only charge for the time the machine is productive, but add perhaps 5$ per hour for the time required to do the non-productive work. If we have to have a generator on site to plug machines in we charge additionally for that.

It is often a double edged sword, in that sometimes any work in the winter is hard to come by so you are grateful for it, but the cost to do the work in the winter is greater and that needs to be considered. I find that if people do not see every little item, like greasing and shoveling tracks, on the invoice they don't feel as if they are being nickel & dimed to death. Adjusting the hourly rate to compensate for the extra expense works well for my clients and me.

 

[wilko]

That ditch sure looks a lot bigger with someone standing in it. A question though, are you putting in culvert and filling it back in? If so, why bother with the round bottom trench?

 

[watglen]

That ditch sure looks a lot bigger with someone standing in it. A question though, are you putting in culvert and filling it back in? If so, why bother with the round bottom trench?

Yeah, behind my rod man is the outlet pipe already buried. We are working on the first section of dual wall smoothwall pipe.

In Ontario, there is legislation that governs the install of farm drainage tile (In Ontario you can cop a murder plea, but if you install farm tile without a license your screwed!) and one of the rules is how the tile is supported in the trench. They want to see it supported at the haunches, if that means anything to you.

Plus, I have dug up 12" pipe I installed on a flat bottom trench and it ovals in just a few years. So the specially shaped tooth cuts a groove that will support every size tile up to 12". On this install, we backfilled and bedded with granular A (3/4" crusher run) so that it was perfectly supported before the dirt was placed on top. It worked out great.

Ken

 

[wilko]

Thanks. Around here you either push dirt over it or bed it in with drain rock, or in the case of a culvert 1 1/2 or 3/4 minus.

 

[Construct'O]

Yeah, behind my rod man is the outlet pipe already buried. We are working on the first section of dual wall smoothwall pipe.

In Ontario, there is legislation that governs the install of farm drainage tile (In Ontario you can cop a murder plea, but if you install farm tile without a license your screwed!) and one of the rules is how the tile is supported in the trench. They want to see it supported at the haunches, if that means anything to you.

Plus, I have dug up 12" pipe I installed on a flat bottom trench and it ovals in just a few years. So the specially shaped tooth cuts a groove that will support every size tile up to 12". On this install, we backfilled and bedded with granular A (3/4" crusher run) so that it was perfectly supported before the dirt was placed on top. It worked out great.

Ken

Have you gotten certfied yet,or are you working on that now.I thought you have to work under someone else before you could get certfied??? Lots of rules for everything any more.Are you a member of LICA?? Has good info for different areas,plus there is also the Drainage Contractors magazine that has great articles for reading to help.Looks like you getting some experience.Good luck

 

[watglen]

Construct O

I haven't got certified yet, though I have taken all the training courses.

There are a couple loopholes in the legislation, one being that work done on your own land isn't covered. Lease land is the same.

Also, the contractor doesn't need the operating license if he hires a licensed operator to oversee the work.

There are licensed operators available, but you kind of have to struggle and really beat the bushes to find them. They are pretty old, busy, and in demand.

In all there are 3 levels of licensing required. The plow has a license, the machine operator has a license, and the business has a license.



What about yourself, any pics of your gear to share?


Ken