How far have we come?

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Just curious, posted this on another thread but no one seems to want to talk.

Hypothetical. If we were to take a jigger such a 'seventys/'eightys era Hi-Hoe, Kato, Linkbelt or whatever in "as new" condition and put it to work baling and loading beside an equivalent weight current rig how far would it be behind at the end of the shift?

Any comments? For instance would it be the difference between a top hand and average or would it be way out there?

Cheers.

 

[qball]

scrub, i am bailing with a 235 into semi dumps all day long. slow and steady. not as comfy as some of the new junk, but way less problematic. i bet a similar sized new rig woul pull fairly close production numbers.

 

[John C.]

From my point of view the difference is not so much the rate of production but the length of time in operation and the cost to keep it that way.

I worked on Drotts that had to be rebuilt every three years or so. Koehring excavators had to have the air systems deiced every time it froze out and flat tracks with drive chains that would snap every time you hit a steep incline. Link-Belt 5400 and 5800 shovels and excavators with Detroits that needed a rebuild every 5,000 hours. Hein Warner and Warner and Swassy shovels with broken sticks and lots of cracked booms. All these rigs used at best two wire hydraulic hoses with JIC fittings that bled copious amounts of expensive fluid all the time. That brings back the memories of Poclains leaking a drum of ATF a week.

When it comes to these machines the good ole days were when these found their way to the scrapper!

 

[Plant Fitter]

The older machines will use more fuel to do the same work.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . John C. Interesting comments. So basicaly you are saying the new machines are more reliable and will provide better availability?

Plant Fitter. Gotcha on that one mate. The newer engines undoubtably use less juice . . . but how much less?


qball That 235 would be early 'eightys with the 3306?


Cheers.

 

[log frog]

I regret the technology introduced in the past few years. The Common Rail engines with all the high tech injection systems. The multi speed cooling fans. All designed to reduce emissions and reduce fuel burn. The jury is still out on 'global warming' and the causes thereof, and I'd rather burn a little extra juice and pay a little less for a 'lower tech' machine. Hi Tech just means high repair bills, when it inevetably goes wrong (usually just out of warraty).

 

[Plant Fitter]

Plant Fitter. Gotcha on that one mate. The newer engines undoubtably use less juice . . . but how much less?

I don't have any figures on it, but I seriously doubt that the amount of fuel you save will make up for the high cost of purchase and repair of newer complex engines and machines.

 

[Plant Fitter]

Yair . . . John C. Interesting comments. So basicaly you are saying the new machines are more reliable and will provide better availability?

Cheers.

The new machines are more reliable but only if looked after properly and supported by a dealer.

Modern engines are not very tolerant of the slightest contamination in the fuel, wheras the older machines can handle just a little bit. Then when something does go wrong it is so complicated that you don't even know where to start to try to fix it.

Hydraulic systems are so complicated that the same thing applies. The high pressures required in modern load sensing pressure compensated variable swashplate piston pump hydraulics mean that they cannot handle the slightest bit of contamination, compared with the old style gear pumps which could handle it a bit better. They are less efficient but will stand up to abuse better.

In some cases you are better off with an old machine that needs a bit of welding up here and there and leaks a bit of oil, if the dealer is not on hand to do specialised repairs. Even if productivity is a bit less, if you can keep it going its better than something that is sitting down because you can't fix it.

I do agree that modern machines are more reliable, but only if looked after properly.

 

[log frog]

I agree. I would love to see some figures on it. Check out my post in the excavator section about the cooling fan hub failure. So much technology just to make the fan slow down a bit when you don't need it, with the hope of saving a little fuel. Well the cost of that little failure including replacing the rads, was just over $17k, not including down time. How much fuel does $17k buy? Do the math.

 

[BarnStarFarm]

Can't speak to the big digging equipment so much but my not-very-computerized 1999 Takeuchi 070 and 1990 F-800 dump truck are a hella lot easier to diagnose, find parts for and fix than my 2010 superduty!!! More in diesel costs probably but still way under having a dealer look at the superduty because there is very, very little I can diagnose and fix on that!

 

[Taylortractornu]

I like older stuff. I pee and moan about not having a new dozer at work but since I have to work on most of It I like the older stuff. The owner of the landfill we work for is pretty specific about that. He owns a motor home plant and several businesses and likes older simple machines. I spent the day running a newer D6 high track. It has the electric shift and steering. He warned me about pushing near teh bank that the sift wont reverse sometimes and has trouble stoppin g. He had a short in it somewhere, He Has a newish Kobelco that he loads gravel with thats the same size as his old 5000 dollar 215 Cat. He said the old Cat has half the trouble and though burns more fuel up time not having to chase code bugs make up for it.


A Over a year ago The landfill started looking for a newer dozer to replace the D5B at work. We tried a D5K and it left alot to be sesired even with a waste handler package. Alost the numerous boxes and wires. THen we tried a JD700H I was in love with it being big enought to hog soil with and nice ehough to finish with but the same thing boxes and wires and upon looking at it I pulled a few panels off and saw splices and such and we bought the old D4H we have now. Its a little rough and we have sunk some money into it but its nice to have a lever attached to a valve. I had a friend tell me on his old D7 when a mouse or chipmunk builds a nest on the engine or hops out of the battery box He said you jut blow it out and go on. If one builds on his new D6 he panics.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . I appreciate the reply's fellers.

As I have said before I am out of the game now but maintain an interest and this site has been a bit of an eye opener. As I have posted before a contractor here is remanufacturing some thirty year old excavators to get away from electrics/electronics . . . he even joked about putting a 5LW Gardiner with a crank kit into a 750 Kato and he wouldn't need any electrics on the machine at all at all!

For U.S. folks unfamiliar with Gardiner they are an English low revving diesel renowned for easy starting. All the marine versions are provided with a crank kit and even the twenty four liter 230 HP straight eight 8L3b can be crank started.

Cheers.

 

[Taylortractornu]

One reason I bought my little PC50UU-1 grey market over a newer and faster machine was the lack of al l the electrics. I dont know how a new hoe would take a lightning strike but I have a friend with a new Toyota Van. His ife was driving home the other day and it took a strike. It literally killed it on the spot. Toyota has had it over a month and still cant fix it now they are saying write itoff.

 

[Hendrik]

This reminds me of a story I read a while back about a large farmer in Qld or NSW, who is rebuilding his older tractors rather than buying new because he was having a lot of trouble with the new tractors breaking down due to electrical trouble and the only fix seemed to be replacing expensive control units.
There are different grades of electronics based on price, if a manufacturer cheaps out on electrics, then the machine is gonna be a pain. All it takes is one crook solder joint to stop a machine.
Electronics also have a lifespan, how long does the average computer last? Reasonably long sitting on the desk in a clean and vibration fee environment.
Then there is the question of replacement parts, will you still be able to get the electric control units for a particular machine in 10 years time?
Anyway it seems where stuck with it.

 

[D&GExcavating]

With the way we use equipment, and the amount of hours that we run, most of all the older equipment just has too many hours already built up and they just prove to be even more problematic. Our 320BL already has 16,000 hours and both of our 320CLs are inching near 10,000 hours each. We used to have an old 225LC in great shape but there just isn't any comparison in speed. The 320BL would bury that 225LC, and either one of the 320CLs could almost bury the 320BL. There's nothing wrong with any of them, just the difference in technology. If there's a way to get stuff done faster, then that's the way to go. The old guys that worked for my grandpa in the 70s and 80s say they would never go back to those old link belt 3400s they used to have, just because they were so slow.

 

[Plant Fitter]

This reminds me of a story I read a while back about a large farmer in Qld or NSW, who is rebuilding his older tractors rather than buying new because he was having a lot of trouble with the new tractors breaking down due to electrical trouble and the only fix seemed to be replacing expensive control units.
There are different grades of electronics based on price, if a manufacturer cheaps out on electrics, then the machine is gonna be a pain. All it takes is one crook solder joint to stop a machine.
Electronics also have a lifespan, how long does the average computer last? Reasonably long sitting on the desk in a clean and vibration fee environment.
Then there is the question of replacement parts, will you still be able to get the electric control units for a particular machine in 10 years time?
Anyway it seems where stuck with it.

Can you remember what brand and model of tractors were giving the trouble?

Yes we will be stuck with it, because the manufacturers have to meet ever tightening exhaust emmission laws put in place by the governments of the developed world. To meet the emmission limits, the engines have to be controlled electronically to make them run clean enough.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Plant Fitter. I dont have so much of an issue with electronic engines but a set of algorithms to ring the changes and controll pump flow and shift points and full power direction changes?. . . sheesh there's gotta be a bit of input from the organic matter sitting on the seat.

 

[truckdoctor]

I know that with the new Volvo excavators and the new Cat dozers,loaders,and excavators every system has a computer and their is a computer to watch after all the other computers. There is no or very little troubleshooting without Cat ET or Volvo Prosis. An issue that we ran into with the Volvo excavators and the newer Cat dozers is that when the air filters became dirty, not plugged up, they would cut power on all systems to avoid smoking. We had nothing but call after call to repair power problems because of this. Machines a series eariler would not have this problem even though they were computer operated. And of course the mechanical engines and non computer machines would run even if the air filter had more sand in it than the beach. Not reccomended though. Personal opinion, you can buy alot of fuel if there's not an equipment payment.

 

[John C.]

The emissions issue is a bit different than machine efficiency.

Diesel smoke is no longer politically acceptable and is demonized by the leaf lickers which is picked up in the education establishment and the news media.

Burn a little more fuel and we don't care. If we see the demon smoke we will unleash the hounds of EPA against you.

Don't think you have seen the end of this yet either. I'm betting that sometime next year the EPA will bring a new regulation requiring states to build a smoke police force. They will go around looking for demon diesel smoke and promptly shut you down and fine you for contributing to the death of frogs and salamanders.

I'm for making things better for all but that won't happen by putting everyone out of work.

 

[D11RCD]

I'm for making things better for all but that won't happen by putting everyone out of work.

So very true.